Couts UMC Proposal to extend the terms of the Building Loan and Initiate a debt
reduction campaign.
Congregational Q&A:
Q1. How much more will the building loan extension loan cost us? Is it $400,000?
A. No, the additional costs of the loan add $1000 in loan modification, title and
closing fees and an additional $271, 552 in interest over the additional 120
months.
Q2. What is the dollar amount that we are short each month (budget & building loan)?
A. Over the last 12 months (April ’14 through March ‘2015) our deficit (contributions
- expenses) is -$42,946 or -$3,579 / Month average. Our year to date (January to
March of 2015) deficit vs. Budget is -$2824 per month.
Q3. How many families currently attend Couts on a regular basis?
A. In 2014, we had 134 families that made contributions.
Q4. During the last 14 years have we paid anything on the actual principal or are we just trying
to make interest payments?
A. Yes, we have paid on the principal. In February of 2001 our loan was
$1,425,323.92. We are now at $1,008,000. That means that we have reduced
our principal by $417,000.
Q5. What will the $2000 a month savings be applied to?
A. Budget expenses, paying back Peach Festival, and building up a reserve fund is
where we will begin.
Q6. With the loan extension, we’ll still be short $1600 a month (based on the Contributions
minus expenses)
A. With our current budget we have reduced spending this year compared to 2014.
The $2000/month will help us meet our projected budget for 2015.
Q7. What are the plans to insure that we as a church body live within our budget? If we
continue to spend money that we do not have, then in 3 months we will be right back
here trying to figure out how to come up with more money. Basically my question is what
has changed, or been put in place to make sure that Church Council will not approve
expenses after being told that the funds do not exist by Finance??
A. The budget income is projected from pledges from the letter campaign in the fall
2014. We added the amount pledged on the cards and projected pledges for
those who did not return a card according to what they gave the year before. On
the expense side, several line items were cut. Children’s ministry took the biggest
hit. Our expenses are within the projected budget. If we are short one month we
have limited reserves to fall back on at this time.
Q8. If we are running short approximately $3600 a month, how will $2000 per month solve
the problem?
A. The $2000 per month does not solve the problem it just slows the bleeding.
Q9. Church council approved raises and adding Allison as an associate pastor after Rob had
presented that the Church did not have the funds to make these changes. We do not
have a history of living within our budget. Our church is not large enough for a pastor and
associate pastor, so we voted this in anyway---AFTER knowing that we did not have the
funds to pay for it.
A. This was a council decision and as mentioned above, the council was aware at the
time that we did not have the funds available. The $10,000 increase took effect
Jan. 1, 2015 (The church will only pay this salary rate for 6 months) making it a
$5000 cost increase to the church. By making the position an appointed position
as of July of 2014 that saved the church about $562.50 in payroll taxes in 2014.
(Appointed clergy pay social security at the self-employment rate. In 2014 Alison
picked this up before any changes to income in January of 2015) Using the same
salary number (assuming no raise for 2015) that would be another $562.50 for
this year that the church has or will not have to pay in payroll taxes. So the net
cost of the increase to the church ends up being ($5000-$562.50-$562.50=$3875)
Q10. With the debt reduction campaign, which does not require conference approval, what is
the reason the loan extension would be agreed to, before going to the debt reduction
group to determine if that is a good decision? If we do the loan extension, then the
reduction campaign, we are locked into the debt. It seems wiser to have the situation
evaluated before making a significant decision on the debt extension.
A. The extension addresses current cash flow.
Q11. The $17,000 for operating expense that was borrowed was it like a loan to be paid back
or is it more a taken from the account for operating expense? I don't understand the
borrow term.
A. Non designated funds are used as a reserve when general operating account and
general reserves are depleted. It will be paid back, monthly, each month as our
income exceeds our expenses.
Q12. Why are all the numbers of the cost of this extension/campaign not being provided to
the Church body? The letters left in the SS room did not give any numbers as to the COST
of the loan extension/where the money would go/and the cost of the capital campaign. I
think if we are asking the Church to vote on such an important matter, it is only
right/honest to make FULL disclosure, so people can make an educated vote.
A. The cost of the extension will be no more than $1000.
Q13. Please provide a statement which defines the numbers and not just the $2000 a month
and 10 year numbers. There are more numbers to identify and explain the importance of
the vote. I would add that if the proposal is voted as no, then the expectation is that we
would collectively as a church address the issue.
A. I would see a no vote leaving the payback of the note the same i.e. payoff in May
of 2029. That would cost the church $361,176 in interest from May of 2015 until
May of 2029. The cost per month would remain $8,107. A yes vote with a
successful 3 year campaign could save $250,000 or more in interest alone. This
would make the loan extension date irrelevant (the loan would be paid off). The
extension helps with current cash flow. If, for example, the campaign brings in
only $700,000 over 3 years. We would still owe $300,000. Our payment from the
extension to May of 2039 would be around $5400/month. At that rate the
remaining principle of the loan would be paid in full in less than 6 years after the
3 year campaign, once again making the extension irrelevant.
Q14. Matt mentioned he is not a fund raiser or motivator to encourage people to pay. I'm
not either but I am a believer that if the scriptures are provided and if Jesus is lifted up,
then the Holy Spirit will do the work of encouragement, motivation, and whatever is
needed. I think that the church has a situation where years ago, a financial situation
occurred that split the church and caused division, resentment, and discord. As the
scriptures focus on forgiveness and repentance, those should be addressed also so that as
a church body we might start over. I think that issue has hung over the church and
members who still talk about the split. The unity is missing. I would be willing to speak if
needed.
A. As the pastor of the church I am the primary fund raiser. I have not done a
campaign of this size in the past but I have done many annual budget campaigns
and some smaller scale capital campaigns. They have been successful. I agree
with you that the split that occurred about 14 years ago does linger and this debt
hangs over the church as a reminder of that pain and grief. I believe that we as a
church do need to extend forgiveness, accept the healing God brings to us, and
move forward with what God has in mind for this church and this community. The
HCI process will help us discern and articulate that purpose that God has for us.
Paying off this debt is one step to moving forward with that vision and allowing
for healing. The only way we can pay this debt off is by joining together. The
reason we want to pay this off is so we can be who God is calling us to be.
Q15. If the current immediate need is $2000 a month, what alternatives could we do to focus
on getting that amount before extending a debt and increasing out financial liability?
A. The $2,000 / month savings on the loan payment after extending the loan 10
years to May of 2039 just helps with immediate cash flow. The 2015 budget
reflects several line item reductions from the 2014 budget where possible.
Q16. If the short fall is $2000, what is the option for CCA to provide a portion of our electric
bill, equivalent to their usage, which would offset a portion of our expenses?
A. Currently CCA does not contribute anything toward our electric bill, for use of
building, or for the extra insurance exposure due to having a school. Pastor Matt
has asked CCA to come up with a 3 year plan to become a self-sustaining ministry
of the church. Work is being done to determine how much the school does cost
the church in overhead.
Q17. I understand the date of the charge conference is set, but making the decision to extend
the debt seems to be a forced situation.
A. Pursuant to the request of a few church members, the District Superintendent
has agreed to allow the Church to vote on each proposal individually.
Q18. What are the exact fees for the representatives with the campaign reduction?
A. See Response from Clif Christopher below.
Q19. If we do not have the money to meet budget, where do we plan to get the money to
pay these fees?
A. See Response from Clif Christopher below.
Q20. It is being represented to the Church members that this campaign could allow us to pay
off the loan in 3 years. Without any interest being taken into consideration, it would take
almost $28,000.00 a month, every month consistently for 3 years OVER and ABOVE what
we already take in, totally dedicated to this loan to pay it off in 3 years. If we cannot feel
confident in even raising 3 thousand dollars to meet our budget, why do we think we can
raise an additional $28,000.00?
A. See Response from Clif Christopher below.
Q21. If we do a feasibility study on what our church can raise – how much would that cost
before making a decision on either yay or nay?
A. See Response from Clif Christopher below.
Q22. For a three year debt reduction campaign – how much will that cost our church?
A. See Response from Clif Christopher below.
Q23. If our reduction campaign does not go as planned, what will be our plan for paying the
consultants?
A. See Response from Clif Christopher below.
Q24. What all does this cost cover (i.e. how many consultations over what period of time,
etc.)?
A. See Response from Clif Christopher below.
Q25. How is it paid (lump sum or monthly payments)?
A. See Response from Clif Christopher below.
Q26. What is the cost of the campaign program, what is the expected outcome, how
successful have they been, with examples, and more importantly some of their less than
successful results and outcomes? What are the reasons for not being successful, analysis
or participation by the church?
A. See Response from Clif Christopher below.
Q27. Will the debt reduction campaign counselors be given access to our personal previous
giving records?
A. See Response from Clif Christopher below.
Q28. Will my personal giving records be kept private?
A. See Response from Clif Christopher below.
Q29. Will I be notified and asked for approval as to what of my personal information will be
released prior to its sharing with Consultant?
A. See Response from Clif Christopher below.
Q30. How much of my personal information will be disclosed to the outside company?
Telephone Numbers? Addresses?
A. See Response from Clif Christopher below.
Response from Clif Christopher of Horizons Stewardship regarding the questions
asked by the Couts Congregation:
Clif Christopher
Matt, I will try and respond to your questions as briefly and correctly as possible.
Horizons has been in business since 1992 when I founded it while still pastoring a
United Methodist Church. I am still under appointment. Today we have over twenty
ministry strategists located throughout the U.S. and Asia. We have served over 2000
churches and raised over two billion dollars. We are the only firm recommended by
Texas Methodist Foundation, the Oklahoma UM Foundation and the Louisiana UM
Foundation. We are the only firm asked to train our overseas missionaries and
institutions In Stewardship by the General Board of Higher Ed of the UMC. We are
highly accountable to the UMC.
Our clients range from very small UM churches to some of our most prestigious like
Highland Park and Lovers Lane in Dallas, Christ in Plano, Trietsch in Flower Mound,
Church of the Resurrection in Kansas City, Ginghamsburg in Ohio, and Asbury in
Tulsa.
In response to questions:
1. Your fee based on your size and attendance will be $38,600. This is paid with 10%
down and 10% upon completion of the Feasibility Study. You have fifteen days to
cancel at that point with no further obligation. If you continue, the balance is paid in
six equal monthly installments beginning when the campaign begins. The fee covers
all of our expenses, manual preparation, our doing all training sessions and team
recruitment, setting up of a planned giving program, annual fund coordination, and
three years of follow up. At a church your size we should be on site 12-15 days. The
fee is almost always considered a campaign expense by our churches.
All of our contracts come with a single sentence which says if for any reason the
church is not fully satisfied then the entire fee will be returned upon your request.
2. The Feasibility study is the only way to accurately determine what you can raise,
but typically a debt campaign will raise between 1.2-1.6 times budget. If such was
true for you that would be 690,000 to 920,000. This would come in over a three year
period with about 40% coming in the first year.
3. Horizons will need all of the church's historical and present financial data related
to giving both as a total church and individual donors. Such is always held
confidentially. We cannot be expected to provide appropriate counsel for a financial
campaign without full financial data. In our twenty- three year history this has been
the case every time and it has never been a problem. We keep confidences just as a
lawyer, banker or accountant would. As an appointed clergy person for thirty-nine
years I understand confidentiality.
4. We have never had a failed campaign or ever to refund a fee. This is because our
feasibility study is so thorough that we can see in advance if a church is likely to fail and we
do not do it. When you will give people's money back you have nothing to gain from running
a failed campaign.
I hope this is helpful. Let me know how else I can assist you. Your window for fall will not
remain open very long. Thanks Clif
Clif Christopher
President
Horizons Stewardship Co.
There were a few additional questions submitted at the Informational Meeting Sunday morning. One of
the questions, due to lack of information, was answered incorrectly. After further clarification, the
correct Q&A is below.
Q1. What is the current interest rate of our building loan
A. Our interest rate is 4.75%. It is a simple interest loan.
Q2. Is our current interest rate fixed?
A. No, the interest rate is locked until May 8th, 2017. After that it is subject to
market fluctuation.
Q3. Are we extending both the Building loan and the special projects loan?
A. No. We are only proposing to extend the terms of the building loan
($910,000). Not the Special projects loan ($90,800)