Public Document Pack
LEWISHAM COMMUNITY POLICE
CONSULTATIVE GROUP
Working for a safer Lewisham for all
COVER SHEET FOR MINUTES OF THE
SPECIAL MEETING HELD IN AUGUST 2011
Tuesday, 30 August 2011 7.00 pm
Civic Suite, Lewisham Town Hall, London SE6 4RU
For additional information about the LCPCG please contact:
LCPCG Coordinator, Daisy Cairns, 2nd Floor, Civic Suite, Catford, London, SE6 4RU
Tel: 020 8314 8975 Email: [email protected] Website: http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/lcpcg
Minute Item 1
LEWISHAM COMMUNITY POLICE CONSULTATIVE GROUP
SPECIAL MEETING
Tuesday 30 August 2011, 7.00 – 8.30 pm
Rooms 1 & 2, Civic Suite, Catford
Members present
Tayo Disu (chair)
James Dobson
Jeremy Burton
Angela Hall
Owen Douce
Carol Mew
David Brown
David Michael
Deidre Mason
Florence
Emakpose
Tom Mann
Harry Powell
Gilbert Oshevire
Jane Duffy
Joanna Bish
The Tabernacle
Lewisham Humanist Group
Lewisham Police Borough
Commander
Sydenham Ward Panel
Ransom Church of God
Lewisham Disability Coalition
Forest Hill SNP
Marsha Phoenix Mem. Trust
Crofton Park SNP
World Of Hope
Joanne Hall
Shelagh Fitzpatrick
Geeta
Subramaniam
Ken Maxton
Kevin Hern
Laurel Saunders
Lina Wallace,
Lisa Crook
Man Mohan
Muladi Badibengi
Lewisham Central Ward Panel
Deptford Sector Working Group
LBL Crime Reduction Service
CURV
Lewisham Sports Consortium
African Welfare Organisation
Downham Ward Panel
Lewisham Black Staff Forum
Nico Springman
Olivia Sandy
Patricia Carruthers
Steve Carney
Trevor Jones
Ladywell SNP
Kiwanis LSE
Catford South Ward Panel
Lewisham College
Deptford Sector Working Group
Milford Towers R. Ass.
Perry Vale Ward Panel
Rushey Green Ward Panel
Lewisham Victims Support
Lewisham Police
Lewisham Asian Association
Lewisham Wrestling Club
Others present
Daisy Cairns
Aileen Buckton
LCPCG Coordinator (minutes)
ED Community Services
Sir Steve Bullock
Joyce Jacca
Alvan Wright
Andrew Hagger
Barrie Neal
Beresford Pearl
C Kibblewhite
Christine Grice
Cllr Alan Hall
LBL - Youth Service
LBL - Scrutiny Manager
LBL - Policy & Governance
Ex-Police
Crofton Park SNP
LBL CYP
LBL Councillor (Lab)
Jacob Sakil
Janice Hern
Jessica Catley
Julienne Maisi
Justin Baidoo
Katie O’Reilly
Kavita Tate
Cllr Ami Ibitson
LBL Councillor (Lab)
Cllr Chris Allison
Cllr Chris Maines
Cllr John Paschoud
Cllr Julia Fletcher
Cllr Kevin Bonavia
LBL Councillor (Cons)
LBL Councillor (Lib Dem)
LBL Councillor (Lab)
LBL Councillor (Lib Dem)
LBL Councillor (Lab)
Kieza Silveira De
Sousa
Martin Powell-Davis
M Long
Noreen Howard
Michael White
M Coulston
Cllr M Nisbet
Cllr Paul Bell
D Cregan
Danielle Heath
Delores William
Derek Johnson
Donna Johnson
Ericka Rowe
Everton Augustus
G Hallam
LBL Councillor (Lab)
LBL Councillor (Lab)
St Matthew Academy
New Cross SNP
New Cross People’s Library
LBL - Governance Support
LBL - Youth Service
SNT
Lewisham Way
Lewisham People Before
Profit
Paul Newing
Peter Macdonald
Petula Peters
J Steele
Royston John
Saraid Dodd
Simon Minott
Tim Evans
Insp Nicola Duffy
Thomas Joseph
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Mayor of Lewisham
FOWI and 2000 Community
Action Centre
Former Young Mayor
Perry Vale SNP
Young Advisors
World of Hope
Unite, Young Members
Young Advisors
Blackheath Neighbourhood
Watch
Young Mayor of Lewisham
NUT
Lewisham LINK
Griot Development Institiute
The Tabernacle Church
Lewisham People Before
Profit
LLHS
Lewisham NW
LBL Policy Unit
Bellingham SNT Chair
NCBI London
NUT
Comm. Inclusion Project
MPS
SNT Inspector
Step by Step
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Gary Connors
R Holland
LBL - Crime Reduction Service
Downham Safer
Neighbourhood Panel
Antoinette Adams
A Torrington
A Turkmen
Andrez Harriot
B T Langridge
C Black
Chewil
David Williams
Evelyn Liston
Frank Still
Freya Roger
G A Ward
Geslyn Malcolm
Geoffrey Thurley
Tanya Edwards
Toby Abse
H D Levy
June Still
Marie Morrissey
Maxine Williams
Mr Levlo
P Williams
Phillip Stuart
LBL - Crime Reduction Service
Lewisham People Before
Profit
Roger Raymond
Tracey Goodhew
Val Wethey
Yvonne Field
MINUTES OF 30 AUGUST 2011 SPECIAL MEETING
1.
Vice Chair’s welcome
Tayo Disu introduced herself as the Vice Chair of the LCPCG and explained that this special
meeting had been called in response to the recent disorder, on behalf of the chair and
members of the LCPCG Strategy Group. It was noted that recent events had raised strong
feelings, and the meeting was asked to treat others with respect, and allow all views to be
heard, both in the audience and on the panel. As it was anticipated that there would be a
high number of questions, it had been decided to take written questions from the audience,
so that more questions could be answered in the limited time available, and to give
all participants an equal opportunity to be heard. She explained that the question
slips which had been distributed on entry would be collected shortly. After the written
questions had been put to the panel, then questions will be taken from the floor.
2.
Apologies
Jackie Addison LCPCG Chair, Rosario Mincher, Gordon Glean; CI Simon Davis; Phil Turner,
Mahad Abdullahi, Gurbakhsh Garcha
3.
Sir Steve Bullock, Lewisham’s Mayor
The Mayor thanked the Police, on behalf of the people of Lewisham, as some of the worst
things which happened in the recent disorder didn’t happen in Lewisham. There was heroic
behaviour and it is important the acts of criminality are dealt with in a proper and legal way.
Over 70 businesses in the borough have reported damage and theft, and those such as
market traders who were not able to open stalls for several days. Help for these local
businesses will continue. Looking to the future we need to look at the wider context and
factors behind these events, not just locally, but across London and wider. Some media have
taken this opportunity to demonise and vilify young people in our community. Some young
people will have been involved but the overwhelming majority were not and felt the same
anxieties and concerns as the rest of the community when it seemed that we were teetering
on the brink of anarchy, but are also understandably angry at the assumption that young
people are to blame.
4.
Detective Chief Superintendent Jeremy Burton, Lewisham Police’s Borough Commander
Thanked the meeting for the opportunity to speak and for the overwhelming support
received from the public. 22 out of 32 London boroughs were affected. The events began in
Tottenham, spreading the next night to Enfield, Southwark and Brixton and then Lewisham
and other areas on Monday 8th August and were unprecedented in recent years. In Lewisham
High Street there was a large crowd 150-200 people outwardly goading and throwing things
at police officers. Police preserved Lewisham’s Shopping Centre, but were unable to prevent
all damage, and unfortunately some damage occurred in Catford, Lee Green and Deptford
which is absolutely regrettable, but we did prevent the widespread disorder seen in other
boroughs . 226 crimes have been reported. So far there have been 88 arrests, 50% of these
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have been charged and the others are on bail. We will be relentless in pursuing the suspects.
Those we have seen so far are a wide range of people, men, women, children, young people,
elderly people, all kinds of people. Looting is a popular press term, but these are not looters,
they are burglars and criminals. 1200 people have been captured on CCTV footage and 50
people have already been identified from phone and camera footage. Tomorrow advertising
vans will begin a week in the borough displaying some of those faces. Mr Burton then asked
the meeting and the wider public to continue to support the investigation, and help identify
those who caused chaos and havoc on that night.
Tayo Disu thanked the Borough Commander and then asked the audience to hand in any
written questions to the people coming round.
5.
Lina Wallace –Victim Support, Divisional Manager responsible for 6 boroughs in S & SE
London
In the immediate aftermath of the riots, Victim Support (VS) have helped 500 people in
London, 49 of those from Lewisham borough, with both emotional and practical support.
Thankfully no-one in Lewisham was made homeless, but in Croydon and Tottenham, our staff
ran centres for those who were made homeless - donations were received from many,
including a major supermarket offered to help those with bedding, clothing, children’s toys,
and we also offered food vouchers for anyone in immediate need.
In Lewisham Victim Support will continue to support people and businesses across Lewisham
but want to extend our services to people who have been affected, but haven’t yet felt that
they could ask for help from us. Our office is nearby in Sangley Road but we are happy to
come and visit businesses on site, and as well as helping within the community we can
provide help in courts and in dealing with the Criminal Justice System.
Victim Support are setting up some focus groups later in the year and have been told that
Lewisham are very keen to get involved in this type of thing, and would like to ask for your
help. Working with Louise Casey, Victim Commissioner, who is looking for either victims and
non victims to speak about what needs to be done, both within their communities and
nationally. If anyone is interested, please contact the local office at 300 Sangley Road,
Catford, SE6 2JT or 020 8698 4583 or email Lina directly on [email protected].
6.
Written Questions from the audience
James Dobson, LCPCG treasurer then read out the collected written questions in small
batches. The first group of four questions slips were on a similar theme, and James read out
one slip which summarised them:
Anonymous 1 In view of the recent riots, why did the police not immediately quell the rioters
by any and every means necessary to prevent the destruction of our community? 2 What do
you believe is the cause of the violence? 3 What steps are you taking to prevent further
eruptions of violence?
J Burton Firstly - why didn’t Lewisham Police immediately quell the rioters? The situation was
immensely spontaneous - Across London there was almost a viral epidemic of crime and
disorder. Tactics - we implemented a Section 60 and Section 60AA immediately, which allows
us to Stop and Search people and order removal of face masks. We deployed our riot trained
officers to most seriously affected parts of borough. Our officers and staff were brave and
professional and quite frankly did their best in very difficult circumstances. Regarding the
causes, difficult to discern as there were a variety of people committing offences, but a better
picture will be available once arrests are completed, the events reviewed internally and at
London level and police have had debriefings with all our partners. Preventative steps:
16,000 colleagues from across the country have been assisting in London, and have been
made very welcome by the community. In the short term will continue to have higher levels
of police and will monitoring intelligence information closely. Safer Neighbourhood Teams
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have been used to quell potential flash points.
Toby Abse Do you accept that cuts in youth service, libraries and job centres in the borough
were a factor in the recent riots? Could any of these cuts be reversed? Councillor Chris Allison
How much time is taken up monitoring people who have been released early on license from
prison Danielle Heath Is there any preventative work that the police will be undertaking that
has not been cut? R Holland In view of the Government announced cuts, how will it effect
Lewisham Police and PCSO numbers? Will we see less police or PCSOs on the street?
J Burton - People on license - we work with local authorities, probation, jobcentres, etc, to
manage individuals and reduce harm to communities. I don’t know exactly how much time
but I have every confidence that, certainly in Lewisham, it works well. Preventative works
haven’t been cut- Safer Neighbourhood teams visit and offer preventative advice after crimes.
We work with Victim Support and everybody can access police stations who will be able to
provide advice. I will refer question about Youth Services and libraries to the Mayor but it is
important to stress that the offenders weren’t just young people. 25% of the borough
population are under 19 - that 25% are not criminals - the majority of people who caused the
harm were not young people. Finally the question about police and PCSO numbers. Under
the Comprehensive Spending Review the police has to lose 25% of its budget. Locally, we are
doing that to reduce negative impacts to front line work.
S Bullock. One thing to be clear about is that youth services were not cut. There have been
assumptions about this across London, but in Lewisham we did cut the amount spent from
25% . Doesn’t accept analysis of direct connection between cuts and this rioting. There is a
small minority of people in this borough who do engage in criminal activity, some behaviour is
handed down from generation to generation. Early intervention is key but not simple.
I want to engage with central and regional government on these problems.
Everton Augustus With half of black young men unemployed, no or little incentive to continue
education. What are their options? D Cregan Will there be a process or website to enable
schools and other organisations to bid to fund effective diversion projects to engage young
people? Justin Baidoo Does the panel accept that demonising of young and particularly black
working class youth will not help build a solution to the problems posed by the riots? Would
the panel support a community led initiative that organises with the Young Mayor, a public
event that showcases the positive examples of young people and opens a discussion on the
theme of “Give our young people a future” Joyce Jacca Are you working with Schools and
colleges and community organisation and how? Why weren’t there meetings in the
community to reassure us and to know how we could support each other? Noreen Howard
Would this meeting support a proposal for an action research project lead by young people to
look at and implement solutions going forward to the current unrest locally. I would suggest
that David Michael Associates is funded to develop and deliver a 5 year project. Gill Lewis
Apart from the Police Cadets, what else does the police get involved in with the youths of the
borough.
S Bullock First Question - what can we offer young black men? A big challenges for this
community and city is how can we help young people of all races to get through the years of
recession without becoming a lost generation? There is a risk if they don’t get work in late
teens, that when economy picks up they are overtaken by younger people just leaving
schools. We have projects across the borough for young people not in education,
employment or training. We need to be careful not to presume that this was all about young
people of school age. Head teachers met earlier this week to discuss what they need to be
doing collectively as well as in their particular schools. Community led initiatives which break
down negative opinions are important. 99% of young people are a credit to their community
and their families. In answer to the question about community meetings - why were there
none, as this was happening? What happened was very fast moving, not a situation where
tensions were rising over a number of weeks, when we would have organised meetings. And
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finally I am sure that David Michael would do a fantastic job, but it is not the business of this
meeting to decide these things.
J Burton As Sir Steve said, it is important not to demonise young people, and whilst the
investigation continues police will give a balanced response about who committed these
offences. Believe that strong community spirit and levels of responsibility effectively
dampened what could have happened. Police get involved in with the youth of the borough
via 3 groups of Police Cadets as well as Schools Officers, Youth Advising Police group. We
work with organisations such as Second Wave and with local authority on Trilogy Plus, a
project which moves people away from gangs. Also we are out on the streets engaging with
the whole community every day. Why weren’t people informed at the time? We did talk to a
number of people, and we were dealing with a number of policing issues, but if the
communication didn’t reach those that it should have done then I do regret that. We agreed
to this community meeting in slower time, to tease out the issues, have a mature debate and I am very pleased there are so many of you here to reflect the views of the borough.
Tayo Disu then invited some of the members of the Young Citizen’s Panel to speak
Lucy O’Reilly Please continue not cutting youth services- if 99% didn’t riot then the services
must be doing something right.
Jacob Sakil - previous Young Mayor Jacob discussed the initial communications over the
killing of Mark Duggan and concerns over facts around that. His feeling is that the community
needs to look within itself, to talk to our neighbours, and look at how we can address
problems before they escalate and need to be dealt with by the police. Unhappy with the
negative comments heard in the media about young people involved in the rioting. A few
days earlier these people were just part of the same society we all live in, but what emotions
and motivations triggered the decisions to take part? He has had a lot of positive involvement
with police officers such as Supt Lisa Crook, but think that there are some police officers out
their whose behaviour needs correction, but there is unwillingness for this to be spoken
about so it isn’t dealt with. Society provides negative role models such as MPs expenses
scandals, News of the World and police corruption - why are young people measuring success
in terms of material goods, instead of looking at what they can achieve for themselves or their
country, what they can give to society?
James Dobson read out more questions,
Yvonne Field Given that Lewisham prides itself on its diversity as a borough, what plans does
it have to facilitate dialogue between differing communities: old/young black/white
poor/more affluent, in order to help rebuild confidence between communities as things feel
very tense at the moment Royston John To Borough Commander: You rightly outlined what
you will do to bring people to justice. What social measures do you have in mind for going
forward and how will you ensure that you do engage with communities that can help? Simon
Minott What are your plans to improve the relationship between the council/police etc and
the community groups on the ground, that work within very difficult communities, groups that
are trying to create community togetherness and cohesion. Michael Coulston We have seen
many examples of people throwing away norms of decency and grabbing what they can: MPs
& expenses; Judges giving out huge sentences; Tax dodging companies; people stealing from
shops; developers grabbing chunks of Lewisham. What are we going to do in Lewisham to put
people before greed If people had jobs, they would have self respect, money and choices.
What is going to be done to create genuine jobs in Lewisham, actually building and making
both products and a future for everyone? Why don’t we build employment instead of high rise
flats?
S Bullock The last point is slightly astonishing because London is in the middle of its worst
housing crisis since 1960’s - desperate need for more housing in this borough and across the
city. Personally believes that the housing policy we are pursuing in this borough is the right
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one. R.e. how we relate to the community - there is a huge willingness from the people of
this borough to get involved, but we think it happens in pockets, are there ways we can open
up dialogues, rather than existing in small groups. Its not just that people are afraid, but that
people have jobs, lead busy lives, let us build on the strong communities we have in this
borough.
J Burton Answer question about diversity on the borough. Yvonne has come to us, and we
have started to take some steps, under Supt Lisa Crook. Wider point- firstly this is a 2 way
street, we will listen and reach out to communities who are vulnerable, who are hard to reach
but equally, communities need to feedback to us. We will do that in a variety of ways, some
may be more successful than others, but will can never reach everybody. Supt Lisa Crook is
looking at how we can engage with some of our communities that we haven’t been able to
reach and that is ongoing. The first step in reaching the communities is Safer Neighbourhood
Teams who identify problems at root cause - echo what Jacob said, it is about all of us dealing
with it together before it comes to the police, because if it comes to the police then it has
gone too far. In summary we can do better and we recognise that but we are trying to do
better.
7.
Audience Questions from the floor
Tayo Disu announced that next questions from floor would be taken and asked the audience
again to be brief - maximum 2 minutes - to let others have their chance and be respectful to
the others in the room
T Joseph If you live in the North - Honor Oak, Silwood, Pepys estate, coming to the Town Hall
isn’t convenient. I expect ward councillors and MPs to be part of this meeting. The council
and the MPs should have already been holding some sort of meetings - out in the community.
S Bullock Although I didn’t arrange this meeting I am aware that there have been meetings
around the borough in different ways - councillors and officers have been talking to
community organisations in informal ways. The timing in August has not been helpful, and
over the next period, through existing things like the Local Assemblies we want to ensure an
ongoing dialogue. If we thought there was a continuing likelihood of further violence of the
kind that we saw, then we would certainly organise ad-hoc meetings. But that is not what we
are facing, we are facing longer term issues needing longer term, more thought out solutions.
Maxine Williams I think the bottom line in clearing up our community is dealing with
youngsters. From my point of view a lot of parents are in denial about their children and the
way they are behaving. My husband and I are there for our 4 children, and are very involved
with them, do activities with them. Parents need to take responsibility for how their children
are behaving. Yvonne Field Over the past year my group has struggled to bring together
members of the black community, Probably due to lack of time. The small network I am part
of did meet on the Tuesday after the riots. We don’t have a proper infrastructure for BME
organisations, since REAL - but we do have the energy and the commitment, but we need the
support from the council. Cllr Alan Hall I’m one of a number of local councillors who are at
this meeting and I represent Bellingham - which isn’t in the north of the borough but is an
area of deprivation. Would like to thank the police, and also fire, ambulance and care staff
and people who kept services like Meals on Wheels going and looked after many vulnerable
people. Very much agree with panel that we do need facts but we each have our own
prejudices about why this happened- e.g. the economy for me, but that is not the whole
answer. I will ensure that the Scrutiny part of the council looks at this in the wider context, use
our powers of liaison with the police to look at what we can do improve community cohesion,
and within our limited resources, proactively to lobby and to get more value. Also agree with
the Mayor that youth services have not been cut. Antoinette Adams Do you think Police
Officers correctly identified people from CCTV footage?
J Burton We have identified people in a number of ways, including CCTV. If we identify
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someone who has committed a criminal act we go to court and get a warrant, we arrest them,
and interview, and if there is sufficient evidence to charge them with an offence, then the
Crown Prosecution Service authorises that they be charged and put before a court, and if
there isn’t then they are bailed, and the result of that may be that they are released without
charge.
Antoinette Adams The reason why I ask is my 19yr old son was arrested for theft of a 32” TV
but he only has use of one arm. At the magistrate hearing the evidence wasn’t available for
all the charges. How do you think I feel as a parent? Kieza de Souza Hi everyone - I am the
current young mayor of Lewisham. I’ve got a few things I want to say. I agree with some of
the points that the lady made, it is important to know what your children are doing - to know
where your 13 year old is at 10pm. But at same time - I don’t want to hear that it is young
people who are ruining our communities, I was watching the looting of JD Sports in Catford
and saw 65 year olds, mothers and young children and grown men out there. How many
people went out and robbed food? Who are they learning from to steal TVs and trainers - you
lot - expenses scandals. It takes a village to raise a child - to be honest my parents weren’t the
best but they weren’t the only ones that raised me, I had people like Donna, behind me, a
great teacher who I’ve known since primary school, my grandma, my auntie. We can’t just
blame the parents, who taught the parents? The parents parents - they are going on the
media and saying that its our fault and they are prosecuting peoples sons for things they
didn’t do. So we need to look at what everyone in the community is doing. Are you mentoring
young people? I’m sick and tired of the blame being put on young people, because I’m no
longer like that, I know I’m more qualified than some of the people sitting in this room right
now and I’m 18 years old. There are people who want to contribute to the growth of young
people, this is you lots problem, you listen to us, but you don’t act on us. Do you know how
much support I need to go to university in September? I’m just about getting it you know and I
was born down the road, but hardly anyone round here is doing anything for me. Simon
Mynott I wrote down my question and it didn’t get answered. I’d like to say that there are a
lot of guilty people in this room. (Audience member - speak for yourself) In my question I
asked how you were going to communicate with community groups. Has been volunteering
since 2000, and has gone down hill financially, wants to do things but people in the council are
blocking him. Has gone to schools and council and told them how they can help young black
men who are not doing well and they have gone “why you criticising” I’m not criticising, it’s
about the young people that you see dying. I’ve written probably over 60 letters to the
council, I’ve written to schools - they really don’t want to hear it. I’ve finished now. The youth
club called The Arches got shut down because we didn’t have enough members. I want to look
at how the communication works. (chair asks him to finish as he has gone way over his two
minutes) sorry my dear but I’ve given a lot and I want to talk. I want to feel valued, I want to
talk to the Mayor, if he can say yes by the end then we can sit down and talk. Royston John
My question wasn’t answered - I asked the Borough Commander what social measures you
have in mind going forward?
Tayo Disu - I appreciate that there are a lot of people here, but we do have time constraints
who have something to say. If you write down your question I can promise you a written
response.
J Burton I did cover that part, but clearly not as fully as you liked. Firstly what do you mean
by social measures, social measures are something that the whole society needs to effect. If
you mean community engagement I gave a fairly comprehensive answer to earlier written
question including the one from Yvonne Field about what we are doing now, and what we are
planning. The police has a specific role about keeping people safe and preventing crime. We
do that in part by enforcing law, raising awareness, by engaging, by diverting people from
crime. We cant do any of that with out help from the community. Given the time constraints
that we have got I think it would be better for us to meet separately outside this meeting.
S Bullock On the issues around parenting - need to be honest with ourselves, trickles down
the generations, bad parents produce another generation of bad parents. I doubt whether
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anybody who has taken the trouble to come tonight is a bad parent. It is the minority who
don’t want to engage - that is the cycle we have to break. Yvonne asked a question about a
new race relations organisation - we do need to get that up and running people are working
on that and I expect to see something happen quickly. Simon is asking specific questions
about proposals he has come to us with, I am happy to have a meeting with you to talk about
that. But, the volumes of people come to us with requests and proposals, we cannot ever
meet all of them, we have to work with those we think would be most effective.
Tayo Disu then asked for any further questions or suggestions to be put in writing. And took
one final question:
Chief O Sheveirie - First I would like to congratulate the Young Mayors Jacob and Kieza - we
need more of them. Our MPs don’t come here - they are in parliament blaming police,
blaming parents, I know there are some bad parents but who is the cause of all this. Why is
the law stopping police and parents from criticising or disciplining our children. These riots
are caused by the government, at my age my duty is to advise everyone, to advise the
government - we need to see our MPS take our problems to the parliament, now they are
saying they will put more police on the streets. But we are saying prevention is better than
cure.
8.
Closing Remarks from Vice Chair
Tayo Disu thanked everyone for their attendance and participation, and noted that the next
meeting will be on Tuesday October 11.
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