Marriage Startup Episode 37
[Intro music]
LESLIE
Welcome to the Marriage Startup Podcast, Episode 37 - Invest in Love,
Settle Sublime. This is the follow-up discussion of why Laura and I don't
compromise with each other, or in our marriage, and what we do instead.
LAURA
I get to use some cute schoolyard metaphors, and we both try not to cough
directly into the mic.
LESLIE
"Try" being the operative word there. We remind everyone that this is the
last episode of Season 2, and tell you what to expect in Season 3.
LAURA
And of course we have the heart of the show at the end, "What we're going
to do for each other this week".
LESLIE
I'm your co-host, Leslie Camacho, Chief Espresso Officer of the Camacho
household, and CEO of Haywire, and future fun things. I'm so excited!
Can't talk about it yet. Oh, but I'm so excited. So excited.
LAURA
Yay!
LESLIE
I'm excited.
LAURA
And I'm Laura Camacho. I'm the co-founder of Glimmering, partner in Wild
Goose Guidance, and major cheerleader for Leslie in all his secret
endeavors.
LESLIE
All right. Let's start with the news and updates, and then dive in.
LAURA
All right.
LESLIE
So like we mentioned a few seconds ago in the intro, this is the last
episode of Season 2. What that means, just pragmatically speaking, is
that next week - the week of May 4th - there's no show. We take a week
off, we regroup. We know where we want to start Season 3, which we'll
get to in a second, but it just gives us some breathing space every seven
episodes or so, and we found that really helps us keep rejuvenated and at
a good pace, and it's just a long enough break where we get that back
without losing touch, like we did back in December [chuckles].
LAURA
And it gives people an opportunity to catch up too.
LESLIE
Yeah, that's right. So if you didn't listen to Season 1 and you're kind of
brand new, then hey, you have some 20-odd episodes you can catch up
on.
LAURA
Yeah.
LESLIE
That would be four a day, five days a week -
LAURA
No big deal.
LESLIE
- and don't listen on the weekend, because that's work [laughter]. Because
listening to this show is work.
LAURA
Hmm.
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LESLIE
More importantly, Season 3 starts on Monday, May 11, probably in the
evening there, but that's when we plan to start Season 3. We're going to
start it with the series on health that we are co-producing with Dr. Marc
Wagner, who runs a site called Bio Flourish at BioFlourish.com. Of course
we'll link to that.
He is a big promoter of something called human flourishing, which is really
looking at the holistic aspect of your entire life, trying to line them up using
things that have scientific backing, and have research behind them, in a
way - and then actually live those things out in a way that helps you thrive
as an individual and takes you back to each other, and to your community,
and to the Planet Earth. It's quite a comprehensive, very, very aggressive
mission that he's on.
LAURA
Yes.
LESLIE
When you guys hear Marc, Dr. Wagner, and you hear the fire and passion
behind what he does, you're going to just - [chuckles] I remember the first
time I talked to him about this. He was talking to me about quitting his
practice, and wanted my advice on quitting, since I'm an expert, stepping
from a high powered job. We spent almost two hours walking around
Bend, where he just went and took a deep dive on all these things about
the body, what you eat and how that's connected, the science behind it, the
bloodwork he was doing, the testing and the research. I was hooked, like,
five minutes into the conversation. I couldn't get enough of it. So I am, I'm
really, really excited to do what you describe, and that's give our bodies
over to science [chuckles].
LAURA
Right. I think he's got to be excited because so far he himself, and I guess
to a lesser extent his family, have been his guinea pigs, so I think we're
kind of the first people that he has to do his thing with, right?
LESLIE
I don't know. We'll find out.
LAURA
Yeah. Anyway [chuckles].
LESLIE
We're meeting with him next week to prep, so yeah, we'll find out. But
we're super excited about it.
If you have questions about health of any sort, there's a couple people
who've already sent us things - one on Facebook, one privately - about
questions and things that you want us to bring up, or things that you may
want to specifically know about from Dr. Wagner in advance. Please feel
free to send those in to [email protected] or post them on
Facebook or on Twitter, and we are already keeping a list of those things
and compiling those, so as we go into this next health series with him that
we will address as many of those as possible.
All right. Let's get on to the main topic - Investing in Love, Subtly,
Sublimely.
LAURA
[chuckles] That's a great title.
LESLIE
I totally sold it from a song called Sublime and that's a lyric in the song.
Yeah, I don't know. We were talking about this subject just prior to this,
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because I've been having a hard time thinking about what I actually want to
say on the subject. I think that we just need to set it up as we go in here,
that there's two things.
There's the standard disclaimer - we gave it last week, we're going to give
it again. We are about to share our experience, and it's going to sound
prescriptive because I'm a preacher's kid [laughter], and that's how I come
out when I feel passionate about something. But we want to make very
clear upfront this has been our experience, it's what works for us, and we
share it with you as an invitation to explore the same subjects, to work with
it and wrestle with it, not because we have any sort of promise that this is
what's going to work for you but because just asking the question, giving
yourself permission to explore it, is going to bring about a good result for
you, even if it's not the same implementation we have, or even if you
disagree with what we have. It's the nature of the question that's so
important, and looking for a positive outcome from that.
So that's our invitation, this is our journey into that, and I think the really
important thing on top of that is to understand that we understand this in
the context of a healthy relationship. Again, we're not marriage counselors
and we're not psychologists. This is not a way - if you have serious issues
in your marriage then you need - we would ask and invite you to get
professional help in addition to listening to this. That's an invitation to do
that. Laura and I have done that many times in our marriage. We've
talked about that in earlier episodes. So that's our standard disclaimer
when we take a deeper dive into some of the more serious things in how
we operate our marriage.
The other thing that I wanted to say is that we’ve had a harder time figuring
out what exactly we want to say about this. It seemed really obvious
upfront because we know what we do, but in defining how we do it it's
actually been pretty difficult for me to come up with a methodology, which
is unusual for me. I'm usually pretty good about that.
LAURA
Yeah.
LESLIE
I'm reminded of a quote that I should've looked up, so I'm going to
paraphrase it. This is a paraphrase from GK Chesterton, who was a
prolific English writer. One of the ways that he describes things that are
hard to describe is this - how do you explain that which you think explains
everything? He uses the idea of how do you explain electricity to a
caveman, even the concept of it, when it's all around you. Where's your
starting point? That's how I feel about this in our approach there. I just
want to say that upfront here too, because it's been difficult to wrestle with.
So that invitation to wrestle with this I think is important.
LAURA
Yeah.
LESLIE
Again, you're going to lead us off, which I really, really appreciate, by the
way. Thank you very much, because this is -
LAURA
Yes. This is my "what I did for you this week" [chuckles].
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LESLIE
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, get us going on this, Laura. Where do you want
to start here?
LAURA
I'm going to start with just a brief refresher. We left off last week with the
idea that choosing to compromise means that no one wins - you're really
just deciding the terms of everyone's loss. I think that's the way you put it,
and that was really very good.
We found that compromise is defined - like, literally, in the dictionary - as
making a concession, which is something that two parties agree upon
grudgingly in a way of acknowledging defeat. That's just sort of a negative
way to make decisions, especially in a marriage where you're supposed to
be in love with each other and championing each other's better experience
in life.
So instead of compromising, we choose to invest. The definition of invest
is "to use, give or devote money, time, talent, etc, with expectation of a
profit". That doesn't necessarily mean monetary profit, but profit in the
sense of something - a good return. Something good is going to come of
this exchange. Another alternative definition is "to furnish someone or
something with power or authority", or, "to endow a thing or object with
quality". So you can see the contrast between the very negative
connotations of compromise and the very much more positive connotations
of investment.
The last definition that I really appreciated, that I felt really spoke to our
type of investment in our marriage, is "to involve or engage, especially
emotionally". When you invest yourself into a work, you're engaging
yourself, you're all-in. That's the way we see our marriage.
In Episode 36, I likened compromise to a tug-of-war. That was how we
ended our - I started with my little metaphor. When compromise is a tugof-war, in order for there to be a win someone else - one or the other
people - has to give up. You can't pull together in a two person tug-of-war,
like on the same team. You're always pitted against each other. But if you
invest, it's like being on a teeter-totter with the marriage as the fulcrum, the
point at which all your energy is joining together and then being
redistributed.
Sometimes one person is higher, sometimes the other person is higher.
Sometimes you're working really hard, and you can also - I don't know if
you ever did this as a kid but you kind of like work to balance each other
out and figure exactly right where you need to be so that you can keep it
level, and just nail that perfect balance in between each other.
I thought that was a really good metaphor for investing in each other, and
in a marriage, because when you teeter-totter everyone can win. You're
both getting something out of the experience, whether you're on the high
end or the low end of the teeter-totter. You're both contributing to the ride,
and no one's making a concession or giving up so that the other person
wins. It's very much a partnership kind of thing. Again, you can't teetertotter with just one person either - you both have to be there. And you do
have to be on opposite sides but it is working together, and using that
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middle point, that fulcrum. That's where your energy is focused so that you
are having an effect on the other person.
So anyway [chuckles] LESLIE
And ideally you're both enjoying the entire experience.
LAURA
Yeah, exactly. It's a great ride.
LESLIE
Yeah. The idea that you're at the height and then you literally lower
yourself for the other person's benefit, using the weight of your own
existence quite literally to uplift and bring joy to the other person, and then
it goes back and forth.
LAURA
Yeah. So anyway, I thought it was a really profound metaphor, and I love
playing with words.
LESLIE
[chuckles]
LAURA
But let's take it down to the more practical level. What does investing in
your partner look like to you, Leslie?
LESLIE
I think that the place I want to start is to know that there's a critical
difference between the business definition of investment and what we're
talking about.
LAURA
Yes.
LESLIE
The most critical difference is simply this - in a business investment, you
have to keep score. You weigh a risk and you look at what it's going to
take to contribute into the investment. Am I going to have to put in $5 or
$5,000 or $100,000? Is this project asking me for 30 hours of my time?
What return am I going to get out of this? So in the business context, you
do have to look for what you get out of it.
LAURA
Right.
LESLIE
If you invest enough times and you don't get it back then you stop investing
of it, you move to other investments. There's a point in the business
definition where the word - where the concept of putting something in to
get value out of it for yourself, it breaks apart. So I just want to be clear
upfront that we are not using this in a business sense.
LAURA
It's not the ROI of marriage -
LESLIE
No. You are not looking at the - you're not looking at your return on
investment. Now, I think it is appropriate to look at the return that your
marriage gets as a whole, but again you're not keeping score for yourself.
LAURA
Yeah.
LESLIE
So if you invest in your partner and they don't pull through, and it doesn't
work out the way you want, you don't keep a ledger of that to bring up later
- "Well, I invested in you so many times last year, and you just failed every
single time, so I'm not going to do that anymore." It's like -
LAURA
No. Please don't keep score.
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LESLIE
So yeah, it's very important that going back to your definition here, we are
looking at the - we are concentrating on that one - we do expect a value
out of our investment, but it's not a value to us - to me. If I'm investing in
you, I'm not expecting the value to return to me. I'm expecting you to
receive the value of my investment, so the investment's a gift in that sense.
But the other two parts of the definition we very much want to take
seriously, the idea that you are furnishing your partner with power and/or
authority, and that you are endowing them with a quality of some sort.
Here's where we - we're not just playing with words. Your words do give
power and authority to your partner. Your words do endow them with
qualities that they may not have or they may need more of. So that's
something that you and I firmly believe, is that when we say words to each
other, they actually have meaning and impact. They're not just abstract
things. There is some concrete end result when you say something.
I wanted to say that upfront as a way to set up the rest of it. As I said, I
was having a really difficult time figuring out how to even talk about this.
How do you even talk about investment in the context of marriage,
especially as it relates to compromise? Why contrast these two things
specifically? I can't avoid getting Biblical. There's not a way for me to do
it, because it's so core to my experience.
Probably the most famous passage on love in the literary world is
Corinthians 13. Regardless of what your religious beliefs are, it's
considered across the board to be one of the most beautiful definitions of
love given, and so that's what I'm setting up here. Where I'm not going is
saying you have to believe in Jesus or you have to attend church. No,
we're just looking at the definition as Corinthians gives it, and so my
invitation is just to take that and understand that that's the basis of our
particular answer here.
In particular in Corinthians 13:4-7, it simply reads, "Love is patient. Love is
kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not
dishonor others. It is not self-seeking. It is not easily angered. It keeps no
record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
When you look at the definition of love - when I look at that definition of
love, let's keep it about my own perspective here. When I look at that
definition of love and I say the goal of this marriage is to grow and foster
the love between us, nowhere in that definition do I see the word
compromise.
LAURA
Mm-hmm.
LESLIE
Any sense of the definition of compromise is not contained. It can't be in
there, because compromise by its very nature is self-seeking. It can
dishonor you, it can dishonor the other person, so there's a whole bunch of
things that - where as soon as I realized that the primary goal of our
marriage is to foster this love that we just want to bask in all the time, as
much as possible, that compromise has no place in that.
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When I look at the word 'invest' and I really think about how I try to look at
the things that you need to thrive in your life, that I might be able to give, I
know that when I give you those things it's an investment in that love that
we just want to live in constantly. So I tend to look at the idea of
investment as when I contribute these things, even if I have to sacrifice
something - and I use the word 'sacrifice' because a sacrifice implies that I
am giving something up intentionally for you to win, with no expectation of
my own - of a return directly for me. That's how sacrifice differs from
compromise. Sacrifice is saying, "I give this up so you may have life." I
mean, that's literally the definition. That's the gory premise of sacrifice.
LAURA
Right, yeah.
LESLIE
If I do that then what we get is this kind, patient, humble environment
where we can live in a way where we honor each other, there's no
cynicism, there's no track record of faults, and there's a constant rejoicing
with the truth. In terms of investment, that's where I set my sights, is when
we do have a tension point, I look - I ask myself, "What is the truth of what
we're after out of this?"
I may not ask that with those specific words, because at this point it's just
kind of second nature to how I view not just our relationship but all my
relationships. What's the truth that we're after here? In particular, what is
the truth in the context of what protects, what's going to foster trust, what's
going to foster hope, and what's going to allow for perseverance? Not
perseverance in terms of, "Oh man, I guess I'm just going to be saddled
with this forever." Perseverance is a way to build up the emotional muscle
that you need to get great results.
LAURA
Yeah. I think of perseverance as hope in action.
LESLIE
Yes. That's a great way to do it. It's like a weightlifter doing sets. You
persevere through that last set because what you get out of it is fantastic. I
look at that here as what we get out of it collectively, and what our
marriage gets out of it collectively, is good.
So I think that's a really heavy, dramatic, but also very, very authentic view
of how I actually look at this almost constantly. What I want to do is kind of
back it up and make it really practical so that you can see how this is
actually pretty lightweight [chuckles] if you allow it to be. I warned you
about the preacher voice. I just want to say that [laughter].
We talked in recent episodes about you wanting to take an exercise class,
and how it takes money, and that we don't have a lot of money right now.
So we're being really cautious, and we're being really conscientious about
how we do spend. We have some extra money in April. We can refill the
war chest a bit, but we can still responsibly spend a little bit extra. There
are things that I want. I would like - there's some video games that I would
like to be playing, now that we know the TV's going to be replaced hooray! Fun story.
LAURA
Yay!
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LESLIE
Now there's games that my friends are playing, that my brother's playing,
there's games our daughters want. Looking at a high dollar item, I don't
need an Apple watch but there's the Apple lust that comes -
LAURA
Oh geez.
LESLIE
Yeah, I know.
LAURA
Please don't get an Apple watch.
LESLIE
But, you know, it's not hard for me to find things that I want.
LAURA
Right, right. Got it.
LESLIE
So if I were to take - and so you've come to me and you’ve specifically
asked, "Is it okay if I spend 200-some-odd dollars to take this exercise
class that I really want?" Because it's a big enough spend that we need to
be agreed on it.
LAURA
Mm-hmm.
LESLIE
If I were to say, "No. You know what? That's a lot of money. There's
things I want too next month, Laura. I can see how this would be valuable
to your health but you know, there's things that're going to be valuable to
my play time that I need as a way to relax so I can work better," and I start
rationalizing, and then you start rationalizing. "Well, Leslie, my health is
really important, and I'd really like these end results and do this."
So then I say, "You know what? That's right, but $200 for that exercise
class is too much. Why don't we take that $200 and we split it? You take
that $100 and you find an exercise ball and some training videos. I've
seen these advertisements on Hulu where they have these great things.
It's the same type of exercise but it's just $80 for a subscription to Hulu.
You buy that, that's $120, it's $100 cheaper. I'll take the $80, so I'll be big.
I'll be big hearted here, and you can take $120, and I'll only take $80 for the
video game that I want for the PlayStation, and the $20 extra - you know
what? I'm going to take $20 of that and I'm going to take our girls out to
eat."
So I sweeten the deal because now it's about the kids. We've each sort of
gotten what we're after. Yeah, you would get exercise and maybe you
would capitulate, or maybe you push back, but now we're arguing about
how to split a resource where the end result is not going to be good for
either one of us.
I won't really get the result I want because all the money will be spent, we
won't be saving anything. You're not going to get the result you want
because it’s not the class that you really need and that you have your heart
set on, that you know is going to be the best for you as opposed to being
pretty good. Now we've entered into this discussion where we figure out
how we both lose in a way we can kind of live with.
LAURA
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
LESLIE
The end result will be that every time we want something good for
ourselves, we know it's going to be a negotiation. We know there's going
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to be a fight. We know that we're going to start leveraging our kids against
each other. It's going to be passive-aggressive. Maybe next time you
don't tell me when you get some money into your business. You go, "Well,
I have the $200 and I'm not going to tell Leslie. He doesn't have access to
my PayPal, he'll never know, so I'm just going to take it and invest in
myself," because you know that I'm not going to do that for you.
How terrible. We know people that do this all the time.
LAURA
Yeah.
LESLIE
The truth of the matter, though, if when you ask me for this $200 or - you're
not asking my permission, you're asking if I have agreement that this is the
goal we're after, your health that you have been working towards for
months. If I step back and say, "What is the truth of this? What is the
truth?" what would be protecting of you? What would give you hope?
What is self-sacrificing? What is humble? What isn't arrogant about this?
What is not self-seeking in this? What is the end result going to be? What
is the value that not me but you are going to get out of this? It's going to
be fantastic for you.
LAURA
Yeah.
LESLIE
That would be my investment. "Oh yeah, you know what? This is a worthy
investment. It's worthy because you are worthy, and we've built up the
trust and hope, and we've fostered this environment over time where I
know you don't ask for $200 frivolously, and you know I don't either." So
then it becomes - it doesn't become a discussion about how do we split this
resource and compromise our expectations, and compromise the dreams
and goals that we have, and just say, "You know what? You go for it.
$200's yours, just do it," and I have no expectation that next time I get the
$200.
It doesn't work that way. It's not a trade, it's not a barter. It's just a
complete, wholehearted no, I'm investing in you, this is a worthwhile
investment, it's going to lead to the truth that we want our marriage to be,
that's going to lead to the woman I want to be even more married to than I
am now, and I'm going to foster that environment that we want. So it
completely takes the negotiation out of it and instead just focuses on what
is it that we're after for each other.
Even though I really mean it that it's not a barter, I know that if this is the
example we both lead with and that we both have this approach, that there
is going to be that teeter-totter effect, that up and down approach. Man,
I'm going to have so much joy as I'm sacrificing this, watching you delight
in your best self, watching you thrive and come along. I know that that's
going to be reciprocated, I just don't know when and I just don't know how,
but it will be because that's just the way this version of love works.
If I know that you're invested in this definition and you're invested in this
environment we're trying to make, then I know eventually it's going to come
back to me because we're both operating in the same way.
LAURA
Yeah.
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LESLIE
This can even go down from the $200 level to how you're going to spend
the afternoon together. "Hey, yeah, what do you want to do this
afternoon?" "Oh yeah, last time we went here. Let's go here this time."
It's not a barter system, it's like, "Oh yeah, hey, you really let me choose
last time and I had such a great time, I want to give that same thing back to
you." It's not an expectation, it's just how it is. It takes time. It doesn't
always come naturally because we're kind of selfish by nature to an extent.
So for me, this all gets rooted back to the definition in Corinthians 13.
Again, to take this definition and use it in your own life, you don't have to
believe in anything [chuckles]. Believe in something different. There is no
religious commitment that you are making by looking at this definition and
figuring out what you can get out of it, for both your marriage and your
partner, and yourself and the way that you live.
LAURA
Yeah.
LESLIE
That is my very self-acknowledged preacher voice answer, but I believe it
with all my heart. I don't know how to live differently -
LAURA
I really love that. That was really good. I kind of have an example story
that I would like to share. It's more - it's definitely an example of sacrifice
[chuckles] where I really made a sacrifice of my desires in order to invest in
you, and what you really wanted.
So, my story begins on a hot and muggy July afternoon in Nebraska when
a pick-up truck pulls in our driveway. Out comes a lady with a Great Dane
puppy. I knew that the lady was coming, I knew that there would be a
Great Dane puppy, because we had been talking sort of casually about
how if and when we got another dog it would definitely be a Great Dane.
You'd been looking on Craigslist at cute Great Dane puppies.
I was under the impression that we were going to look at this dog and then
it was going to go away, and we would have a discussion about whether or
not we should get another dog. I was going to try to dissuade you from
getting another dog because I really didn't want one. And that is not at all
what happened. What happened -
LESLIE
No, it is not.
LAURA
What happened was you picked up that puppy and it became one with
your heart [chuckles], and it was yours in that very moment. It became our
puppy. We wrote our check for, what, $50?
LESLIE
Yeah, something like that.
LAURA
It was a purebred Great Dane puppy, she just had the wrong markings so
she couldn't be a show dog. So she was $50 and suddenly we were the
owners of an enormous puppy that grew almost visibly for the next six or
eight months [chuckles]. That was a huge sacrifice for me. I had to put
aside every single one of my preferences about pets and realize that this
was very important to your heart. This was a dream that you had wanted
fulfilled for a long time, and that the timing was right. It was the right dog.
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It was hard for me. That dog did not care for me at all. She was very
much in competition with me. She wanted to be the love of your life, and
your woman.
LESLIE
[chuckles]
LAURA
She always sort of treated me with disdain. I didn't really bond with her. I
tried, but she really was very standoffish. She was more of the cat variety
of dog anyway, to me. Not to you. But anyway, we had Gracie for a really
long time, and it really wasn't until she was dying in - when was that? The
fall of 2012. I was taking care of her every day, cleaning up vomit and
poop off the floor, and trying to get these pills down her throat to hopefully
help her get better, and making difficult calls to the vet.
That was where I really bonded with Gracie. I'm going to cry. What I didn't
realize I think until after she was gone was that she left to make room in
our family for Ethan. I was already pregnant and I didn't know it, but I think
she did, and I think she knew there was no way I could handle taking care
of her and a baby, or even the pregnancy. So she actually returned the
sacrifice, and she lived up to her name. There was a lot of grace.
That was like, I don't know, the 7-year long - the final payout for my
investment, I guess, if you want to say. I finally saw - you know, I saw what
the value was in it. Cleaning up Great Dane poop off the back lawn is not
fun, and I did a lot of that. Great Dane everything is a lot bigger than other
dogs. Everything. I don't know, I feel - I look back at that and I think I am
so glad that I did not put my foot down and say, "No. We haven't
discussed this. This is not something that we've talked about, and I do not
agree."
I'm so glad that I was able to take that step back and say, "What is the truth
of the situation?" The truth is this is Leslie's boyhood dream coming true,
in a way that we can afford, at a time when we can manage it. It was right
before I got pregnant with Sophia [chuckles] that we adopted Gracie. She
saw us through all our kids, all our pregnancies.
But anyway, that's a moment I'm really grateful for that I had the wisdom to
make the investment instead of try to shut it down, or create a compromise
situation, where I really did sacrifice a lot. And you are worth it, and the
relationship that you had with Gracie was so worth it. You needed her.
LESLIE
Yeah, I really did. She carried me a lot. She was my constant companion.
Because what we didn't know at the time was that when Sophia started
growing up, Oscar, our boxer, who had been my companion for a long time
- I had him before we got married - he instantly fell in love with Sophia and
became Sophia's dog almost from the time we brought her home.
LAURA
Yeah.
LESLIE
He just decided, "Oh, this is my job, to take care of this child, to be her
companion." So given the choice between Sophia and me, Oscar chose
Sophia almost every time. Gracie, on the other hand [chuckles]/
LAURA
[chuckles] She didn't like anyone but you.
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LESLIE
Well, no, she did.
LAURA
She tolerated us [chuckles].
LESLIE
No, you're - well, not to argue about the dog. But yeah, the thing is I had
every intention of having that conversation. That was the original set-up
and I was being truthful when we talked about, "Yeah, she's going to come,
we're going to see the puppy, and then we can make a decision," because
I knew that you were -
LAURA
Apprehensive.
LESLIE
- really hesitant about it, and apprehensive about it. So that was always
my intention. The lady did not actually bring Gracie in - I did. So what
happened is that I met her in the driveway with her truck, and I opened the
door and Gracie was sitting in the passenger seat. She just looked up at
me, and then without even thinking I just slid my forearm under her, and
she was about the size of my forearm. For all of two days [laughter]. She
just nestled her head up right against my neck the moment I picked her up,
looked at me, and I was done. I was done for.
I think the other part of the story is that when I brought her in, there wasn't
a conversation. I didn't ask you or demand -
LAURA
Nn-nn.
LESLIE
- that, "No, we have to keep the dog." It's not like I put my foot down and
said, "No, this is my dog, we're writing the check, and so be it." You made
the offer without anything. I brought her in, you saw her, and you just kind
of - I forget exactly what you said, but you said, like, "Oh no, we're getting
her, aren't we?"
LAURA
Yeah.
LESLIE
And that was the end of it. I didn't even - I don't even remember if I said
anything, and after she left I asked if you would name her, and you named
her Gracie. And she did bring a lot of grace into my life, very, very, very
much so. Man, we're full of dramatics today, aren't we?
LAURA
I know. Phew!
LESLIE
And you know, we can point to so much of that, just that type of investing
in the love of our marriage. When we can't - because there's some times
when we don't know what the direct value is, like Wild Goose Guidance.
Even recently, after being married for 11 years, as commonplace as this
idea of investment is, that was really challenging. I did my business
assessment and said, "No, this is not - man, really?"
LAURA
[chuckles]
LESLIE
There is a part of old school Christian in me that really bristled about it,
because I didn't really have an understanding of what you were up to.
There were several times where I actually meant to talk you out of it, and
every single time I just knew it was the wrong thing. So I just decided that,
"Okay. Because I want to do the thing that protects, and I want to do the
thing that fosters trust and hope, and is humble" - and in this case humble
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that just because I have business experience does not mean that I am
right, what it does is that carries some weight in some situations but that
doesn't make me right about these things. And in this case, even I was
right in a business sense, who's to say that the business value of you not
doing that would be greater than your personal growth? Who am I to judge
that?
So I really wrestled with that, but the end of the day, it was like, what does
our marriage look like if I say no, or if I push back? Especially after saying
I want to give you the freedom to really explore and find out what you want
to do, and now the first thing that you are really set on I'm going to shoot
down?
LAURA
[chuckles] Yeah.
LESLIE
I can't do that. So I - a compromise would've been something like, "Why
don't you try Wild Goose Guidance for a quarter and see how you like it?
You do your best, and just let me know how it goes. Here's your time, and
I will still expect you to do these things, because mine is the real business,
so because I have to do the real business that means I can't be as helpful
in the home, and I still expect you to do this, this and the other thing. So
I'm going to say this is okay to try, but just make sure we don't endanger
what I do." That's what compromise would've sounded like. Instead, even
though I didn't see the value from a business sense, even though I didn't
understand why this spoke to you, so I didn't see the value in it like - like,
the exercise is clear. That's something I really understand, because I've
gone through it myself.
But here it's, "No. I know what the value is going to be to the marriage, to
our marriage. I know what the value is going to be to the environment that
I want, that we both want to just live in every single day, that values
humility, that values trust, that values hope, that values perseverance. So
I'm just going to set aside everything and actually invest. I'm going to go
all-in with you, even though I don't understand it. I'm going to help in the
house. I am going to make sure I give you the free time during business
hours for you to actually work on this business, by making sure I schedule
my time around what you need, by making sure I'm up earlier with the kids,
by making sure I give you time on the weekends. I'm going to treat it
exactly as if I thought this was the world's greatest business idea."
Because I just accept that in order to achieve what we're both trying to
achieve, which is this state of being we want as much as possible, that
that's what I need to do to give that to our marriage, and for you to
experience that, and I gave it gladly. I gave it without reservation.
LAURA
Yeah. Your reservations and your hesitation were purely about the
specifics of my business, not about what - about championing me.
LESLIE
Well, I -
LAURA
[chuckles] Yes?
LESLIE
Kind of. I mean, I think there was a legitimate part of me where I wondered
whether it would actually be good for you. Is this - just like if someone - if
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you were to say, "I want to try this exercise program," and I knew it was
bad, I would legitimately try to talk you out of it, so there was this part of
me that really wrestled with the idea. So what I mean by this is that once I
decided that this was an investment to make, part of that decision was not
hedging my bets, was ejecting the cynicism, was ejecting the doubt, and
saying, "No, I'm going to do my best to make this work for you, because I
know that my doing my best and contributing to your success does not
require me to believe in it, it does not require me to understand how this
speaks to your heart, doesn't require me to do any of these things. What it
requires of me is to give the best of what I have to the efforts that you're
making." That's something that I know is worthwhile, just because of the
nature of what it involves, and the outcome that we want in our marriage.
It wouldn't have mattered whether it's working or not because in that
scenario, if it hadn't worked I could legitimately tell you that we gave it our
best. I wouldn't just say, "Well, you gave it your best. Now let's get back to
the real work."
LAURA
Yeah, and leaving me to question did you actually keep it from working
because you weren't behind me 100%.
LESLIE
Yeah. "If my husband had just stepped up, if I had those two hours a week
without the kids, if he had done these things." Man, what doubt that would
have injected into our relationship at such a key point. It just comes from
doing this on a regular basis, on just having this pattern of investment in
the marriage, and investment in each other, and just allowing that to be
how we operate. I think this goes back to the original warning we gave.
This only works if you're - in my opinion, this only works if you're both doing
it.
LAURA
Yeah. Oh, yes.
LESLIE
Because if you're not both doing this approach then one of you is going to
take advantage of the other, badly. It's really - I mean, we have seen all
sorts of Christian marriages go sideways because there are these weird
implementations of it, and there's all these other things, it just becomes
about behavior, and there's not these things. But we see things go
sideways in all sorts of great marriage advice - Biblical or non-Biblical,
secular, whatever. It's all about are you two aiming for the same things?
Do you have the same end goal in mind? Are you willing to give your best
to the other person?
LAURA
Mm-hmm.
LESLIE
If you're not there for whatever reason - and there are very legitimate
reasons not to be there, so again, this is not some pronouncement of
you're a bad person if you're not able - like for me, I was not able to give
my best prior to finding you. I went through two bad relationships, and they
were partly bad because I was not in a state where I could give my best. I
was too broken. I hadn't taken the time to proverbially find myself, to
understand who I am or what I was about.
Child abuse - there is all sorts of things that can legitimately prevent you
from being in a healthy spot, and you can end up married, in relationships,
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and that's where professional help becomes such a thing. I could not have
gotten through this - I could not have read this Bible verse and fixed
myself.
LAURA
No.
LESLIE
I want to make that very clear. I required professional intervention, and
then when I was at a healthy state I was able to pick this thing up and
really understand how it could be really valuable to what we want to
accomplish [sighs].
[chuckles] We had a lot more to say on that than I thought. So yeah, invest
in the other person, and know that the outcome for your marriage is going
to be good. Don't keep score, just keep investing. Is there anything else
you want to add?
LAURA
No. I think it's good. Yeah, I just want to keep making caveats about how
you have to be on the same page. You have to be doing this together. Do
not invest in someone who is not investing in you. It will devastate you.
LESLIE
Yes. It does not say love is blind.
LAURA
Yeah [chuckles].
LESLIE
Which is a common phrase. Nowhere in this verse, the entire chapter in
fact, does it say love is blind, do this irresponsibly [chuckles]. That part
does not exist.
LAURA
I think we covered it really well. I'm glad we found what we needed to say.
LESLIE
Yes, very much so.
All right. We’re going to take our break, we're going to enjoy some of
Lance's music, get all Pink Floyd-y for a bit, and we're going to come back
with what we're going to do for each other this week.
[break music]
And we're back with what we're going to do for each other this week. This
is the heart of the show, where we are proactive about how we can just
give to each other, just invest to each other.
LAURA
[chuckles]
LESLIE
Exactly what we've been talking about for the last almost hour. This is our
lightweight, most of the time, but very practical way to just practice this on
a regular basis. So, Laura, why don't you go first this week?
LAURA
Mine's super-lightweight. I am going to replace that nasty mouthpiece of
your water bottle for you before you go on your trip.
LESLIE
[chuckles] That's been on my to-do list for weeks and I haven't gotten to it.
Yes. We won't post a picture of that. I'm actually kind of embarrassed
about it.
LAURA
Yeah, I don't want you to go to a conference with a water bottle looking like
that [chuckles].
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LESLIE
No, I don't either. So yes [laughter]. I'm a little bit red-faced. That's all
right. Well, speaking of the conference, what I'm going to do for you this
week is I'm going to make sure that I keep you in the loop while I'm gone.
LAURA
Yay!
LESLIE
I'm going to call you. I'm going to make sure that I call you when I actually
have time to bring you up to speed on how things are progressing, people
I've met, decisions that need making or decisions we've made in Haywire,
what's fun, what hasn't been fun, what you can be praying for or if there's
anything you can help with, because a lot of times there's lots of stuff you
can help with even though you're not there. And just do my absolute best
to make sure that I'm treating you like my partner across the board,
because you are. Making sure I'm honoring you as my partner. Not
treating you like a partner, but that I'm honoring you because you are my
partner.
LAURA
Yeah.
LESLIE
In that this trip was an investment on both our parts to make it work, and so
I'm going to make sure that you are included as much as I possibly can in
that. Oh, I just thought of what - there's a new feature on Twitter we can
try using for that called Periscope. I don’t know if that would be
appropriate, but anyway, we'll find a way - we'll find something fun.
LAURA
May I humbly suggest WeChat?
LESLIE
Oh yeah, I can do that.
LAURA
[chuckles] Yay!
LESLIE
I can do that.
LAURA
You can use it to actually communicate with me and not just tease me
because I'm on it with other people.
LESLIE
[chuckles] Yeah, I do that too.
LAURA
[chuckles]
LESLIE
All right. That's going to do it for us this week, and for this season. Thanks
for sticking with us for a whole season. And if you're new to the show, hey,
while you have your week break, seriously, go check out some of the past
episodes and get to know us a little bit better. As always, feel free to send
us your questions, your feedback, if there's things you'd like us to try or
experiment with.
I think one of the things we haven't touched on recently in the next several
episodes but will be very obvious at the start of Season 3, is that part of the
premise of the show is that we try marriage advice live. Whether we read a
book, or whether we seek some other sort of advice, we try to live it out
and report back our results. I think at Season 3, at least at the beginning
of it, we're really going to get back into that with the health aspect of it too,
with this whole idea of Human Flourishing with Dr. Wagner.
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If there's marriage resources you want to send, things you'd like us to
experiment with in that sense, please feel free to post those on Facebook
at facebook.com/marriagestartup. Or if you want to email those to us
privately you can do so at [email protected] and always, your
emails are considered private. We won't divulge any information without
your express permission.
And you can find us at Twitter. We've actually had some back and forth on
Twitter.
LAURA
Have we?
LESLIE
Chris said hi on Twitter again, he's mentioned some stuff. He listened to
some follow-up episodes, which I was really happy about. I didn't expect
him to listen to - well, first of all I was happy that he listened to the podcast
before he interviewed me so he was prepared, but that he listened to some
shows afterwards. I was really happy about.
LAURA
Yeah, that's cool.
LESLIE
So thank you, Chris, again for everything [chuckles]. We had a very short
back and forth on Twitter about Hearthstone. Wait, so to wrap the show up
[laughter], Season 3 -
LAURA
You're not going to make a live confession?
LESLIE
I may or may not have downloaded it for my iPhone, for the purposes of
testing it on the iPhone, of course, only -
LAURA
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
LESLIE
So yeah [chuckles]. I'm all distracted.
LAURA
[chuckles]
LESLIE
The point is we have had some activity on Twitter. We will invest in our
Twitter followers because we love you to, and thank you, guys, there, and
a couple new people that have followed this week. You can find us on
Twitter @marriagestartup.
Just a reminder that we do have a week break. That means there's no
show the week of May 4th, but that doesn’t mean that we won't be active on
the website, Facebook and Twitter, so feel free to contact us and say hello
any time. It simply means that we aren't releasing an episode that week.
Also, if you've actually managed to listen this far and you really like the
show, the best way that you can help promote the show and increase its
reach, and invite more people to take their marriage seriously, their
relationship seriously, as much as they do their business and everything
else, the way that you can help by that is to leave us a review on iTunes. It
makes a huge difference, and we really appreciate you investing in us that
way.
The easiest way to get to our show on iTunes is you just go to
marriagestartup.com/iTunes, and that'll take you straight there. You can
leave a review, leave a rating. You don't have to leave us 5 stars, although
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we certainly appreciate if you do. Just be honest, because we read the
reviews and use those things to improve the show as well.
Also, if you've listened this far, there's an Easter egg at the end of this
season. That's all I'm going to say. There's just an Easter egg - stick
around.
LAURA
Hmm [chuckles].
LESLIE
And as always, be kind to each other. We'll see you in Season 3.
[Outro music… then the Easter egg J ]
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