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AMERICAN SOCIETY OF HEATING, REFRIGERATING AND
AIR-CONDITIONING ENGINEERS, INC.
1791 Tullie Circle, N.E.
Atlanta, GA 30329
404-636-8400
TC MINUTES COVER SHEET
TC/TG/TRG NO
TC 5.2
TC/TG/TRG TITLE
Duct Design
DATE OF MEETING July 1, 2014
MEMBERS
PRESENT
TERM
TO
Larry Smith
6/30/15
Herman Behls
6/30/17
Bill Stout
6/30/17
Craig Wray
6/30/17
Kevin Gebke
Robert Reid
6/30/17
6/30/14
Vikram Murthy
MEMBERS
ABSENT
DATE
Later
LOCATION
Seattle, WA.
YEAR
APPTD
EX-OFFICIO MEMBERS AND
ADDITIONAL ATTENDANCE
*
Steve Idem
6/30/16
Mark Smith
Wesley Davis
Ralph Koerber
Gary Miller
6/30/15
6/30/16
6/30/16
6/30/16
* Member Non-Quorum
1
DISTRIBUTION
All Members of TC plus the following:
TAC Section Head
Ken Peet
TAC Chair
Walter Grondzik
2017 Handbook Liaison (Fundamentals)
Larry Akers
2016 Handbook Liaison (Systems & Equipment)
Annette Dwyer
RAC Liaison
Piotr Domanski
Standards Liaison
Rick Larson
ALI/PDC
Hugh McMillan
Chapter Tech Transfer
James Arnold
Manager of Research & Technical Services
Mike Vaughn
2
AMERICAN SOCIETY OF HEATING, REFRIGERATION AND
AIR-CONDITIONIONG ENGINEERS
1791 Tullie Circle, N.E.
Atlanta, GA 30329
ASHRAE Summer Conference, Seattle, WA.
TC 5.2 Duct Design
Tuesday, July 1, 2014
Time: 3:30-6:00 PM
Location: Room 606, Washington State Convention Center
1)
Call to order: Chairman Larry Smith called the meeting to order at 3:30 PM
2)
Introductions and Attendance
i. Introduction of people present
ii. Attendance sign in sheet
iii. Voting Members Present:
iv. Voting Members Not Present:
v. There is a quorum for the meeting (xx of xx voting members
present).
vi. Corresponding Members: refer to cover sheet for attendees
vii. Provisional Corresponding Members: refer to cover sheet for
attendee’s
viii. YEA members present:
ix. Guests: refer to cover sheet for attendee’s
3)
NYC (Jan 2014) Meeting Minutes.
i. Approval of Minutes from the NYC meeting
4)
Special Announcements - Handouts
i. TC 5.2 VISION Statement
ii. Mini Seminar @ 5:00 PM (later)
iii. Review agenda
iv. Next meeting is later
Subcommittee Reports
i. Section Head Highlights (refer to handout)
ii. TC 5.2 VISION (Larry Smith)
iii. Honors and Awards (Steve Idem)
iv. Handbook (Kevin Gebke)
a. 2016 Systems and Equipment Handbook, Duct
5)
3|Page
v.
vi.
vii.
viii.
ix.
x.
xi.
xii.
Construction
i. Review
ii. Revision
b. 2017 Fundamentals Handbook, Duct Design
Membership (Cindy Bittel)
Programs (Steve Idem)
Duct Design Guide (Pat Brooks)
Special Award (Steve Idem)
ALI (Pat Brooks)…based on Duct Design Guide
Webmaster (Mark Smith)
Liaison Reports
a. MTG.EAS (Larry Smith)
b. 90.1 (Craig Wray)
c. 189.1 (Scott Hobbs)
Research (Herman Behls)
a. RP 1606 – Lab Testing of Flat Oval Transitions
(University of Illinois)
b. RP 1682-“Study to Identify CFD Models to Determine
HVAC Duct Fitting Loss Coefficients
c. Future work statements
i. MTG-EAS-005 Evaluate Heating & Cooling Delivery Systems (Larry
Smith and Dr. Modera)
1. Evaluate alternate methods of delivering BTU’s to a
space and associated energy use
2. Space, energy, maintenance as well as different
building envelopes and geographic locations are to
be considered
3. Include emerging technologies as well as current
practices
ii. MTG.EAS Idea 12 Terminal Unit Published Noise Ratings
(Herman Behls / Jeff Boldt) Herman Behls discussed with
Jeff Boldt and Herman will calculate using an AHRI Excel
spreadsheet the octave band sound levels that can be
expected from various arrangements of downstream
ductwork without duct lining and flex duct, and in consultation
with Jeff put the results into the Acoustics chapter of the
ASHRAE Duct Design Guide.
iii.
MTG.EAS Idea 26: “Energy Impacts from Air Handler Casing
Leakage” (Herman Behls/Julie Ferguson)
iv.
MTG.EAS Idea 27: “Determine Air Leakage of Duct
Transverse Joints and Associated Energy Costs” (Bob Reid).
v.
MTG.EAS Idea 28: “Cost Effectiveness of HVAC System Air
Leakage Tests During Operation” (Jeff Boldt).
vi.
MTG.EAS Idea 029. Air Leakage of Duct-Mounted
Equipment
Herman discussed with Jeff Boldt. Herman Behls will prepare
a Work Statement with Jeff for leakage testing of VAV
terminal units and other duct mounted equipment where
leakage data is not available. Herman Behls will take the
lead.
vii.
MTG.EAS Idea 037. Cost Effectiveness of HVAC System Air
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Leakage Tests during Construction
Herman discussed with Jeff Boldt. Herman Behls will prepare
a Work Statement in consultation with Jeff for developing the
economics (feasibility) of air leakage testing of entire HVAC
systems with emphasis on systems 3 in. water and below.
Jeff Bold will develop the scope.
viii. MTG.EAS-038 Economics of Airtight Non-Fan-Powered Single-Duct Terminal Units
(Jeff Boldt)
xiii. Standards
a. SMACNA/ASHRAE Co-sponsored Standard (BSR-SMACNA 023) (Mark
Modera/Jeff Boldt)
b. SPC 120-2008R (Kevin Gebke)
c. SPC 126-2008R (Kevin Gebke)
d. SPC 215P MOT to Determine Leakage Airflows and Fractional Leakage of
Operating Air Handling Systems (Craig Wray)
9)
Deadlines
i. later
10)
Old Business
i. ASHRAE/ADI Duct Size Calculator (Chris VanRite)
11)
New Business
i. Form codes (IMC, IECC, IFC, IAPMO), and standards (e.g.
SSPC 62.1, 90.1) interaction sub-committee at TC-level and
coordinate with Codes Interactions Subcommittee (CIS) of
Standards Committee.
ii. How do we get more practicing engineers involved?
iii. The final vote of ASHRAE TC5.2 Duct Design was recorded
date by email vote 8/2/0 with the chair voting for the below
motion:
The Chair enters the following motion, second by Ralph Koerber, for a vote of
ASHRAE TC5.2 (Duct Design) as follows:
The ASHRAE 2009 Fundamentals Handbook (page 21.7 and 21.18) reads that “for
commercial systems, flexible ducts should be… no more than 5 ft in length, full
stretched.”
This is also included in the more recent 2013 handbook; however, the limiting
length recommendation was changed to 6 feet.
This was intended to give design guidance to the engineer and was never intended
to be included in code language such as "shall be limited to 5 feet."
It is the recommendation of the ASHRAE technical committee TC5.2 duct design
that any code language limiting the length of flexible duct or air connectors, due to
language in the ASHRAE Handbook as referenced above, to 5 or 6 feet be
stricken.
The following voting members were present for the vote:
5|Page
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Herman Behles
Wes Davis
Kevin Gebke
Ralph Koerber
Gary Miller
Vikram Murthy
Mark Smith
Bill Stout
Craig Wray
Larry Smith
Voted in the negative:
1. Gary Miller
2. Mark Smith
The following voting members were not present:
1. Dr. Idem
2. Bob Reid
The following people were also in attendance:
1. John Hamilton
2. Tim Eorgan
12)
Action Items
TC 5.2 (Duct Design) Action Items
Number
1
Description
Investigate DFDB App (Staff Contact)
1. Person, who maintains, etc,) Staff
Assigned to
Kevin Gebke
Status
Completed Jan.
2014
Larry Smith
Completed Jan
2014
Active
Contact: Steve Comstock
2. Developed by Carmel Software
3. App not maintained by ASHRAE
4. TC 5.2 not consulted
2
Distribute TC 5.2 Vision Statement
3
Comparison of DFDB fittings vs.
plasma machine libraries or current
manufacture’s catalog
4
Submit “Air Diffusion System” seminar
documentation for New York Seattle.
5
Submit “Matching Fan Selections with
System requirements” seminar
documentation for New York.
Larry Smith,
Herman Behls
Steve Idem
Completed Jan.
2014
Steve Idem
Completed Jan.
2014
6|Page
6
Ad-hoc committee initiated for advocacy
objectives for air distribution systems in
existing and new buildings
John Hamilton
Erik Emblem
Active
(Initiated Jan
2014)
7
Submit proposal to ALI for Duct Design
Guide
Pat Brooks
Active
(Initiated Jan
2014)
8
Submit to Standards Committee Scott
Hobbs as TC 5.2’s liaison to SSPC 189.1
Larry Smith
9
Change TC 5.2 Liaison to 90.1 from
Larry Smith to Craig Wray
Larry Smith
Active
(Initiated Jan
2014)
Active
(Initiated Jan
2014)
13)
Adjournment at 5:00 PM
14)
Seminar (Later) (5:00 – 6:00 PM)
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Sub-Committee Meeting Sunday, June 29, 2014 (1:30 PM – 4:00 PM)
Location: later
a. TC5.2 VISION (Larry Smith)
b. ASHRAE/ADI Duct Size Calculator (Chris VanRite/Herman
Behls)
c. Honors and Awards (Idem)
d. Handbook (Gebke)
e. Membership (Cindy)
i. Mentorship
ii. Leadership roles
iii. Voting member transition
f. Programs (Idem)
g. Duct Design Guide (Pat Brooks)
h. ALI (Pat Brooks)
i. Webmaster (Mark Smith)
j. Liaison Reports
i. MTG.EAS (Larry Smith)
ii. 90.1 (Craig Wray)
iii. 189.1 (Scott Hobbs)
k. Research (Herman Behls)
i. RP 1606 – Lab Testing of Flat Oval Transitions
(University of Illinois)
ii. RP 1682-“Study to Identify CFD Models to Determine
HVAC Duct Fitting Loss Coefficients
iii. Future work statements.
iv. Form codes (e.g., IMC, IECC, IFC, IAPMO) and
standards (e.g., SSPCs 62.1, 90.1) interaction subcommittee at TC-level and coordinate with Codes
Interactions Subcommittee (CIS) of Standards
l. Form ASHRAE Standards, code action (IMC and IAPMO), and
90.1 interaction sub-committee
m. Standards
i. MTG-EAS-005 Evaluate Heating & Cooling Delivery Systems (Larry
Smith and Dr. Modera)
1. Evaluate alternate methods of delivering BTU’s to a
space and associated energy use
2. Space, energy, maintenance as well as different
building envelopes and geographic locations are to
be considered
3. Include emerging technologies as well as current
practices
ii. MTG.EAS Idea 12 Terminal Unit Published Noise Ratings
(Herman Behls / Jeff Boldt) Herman Behls discussed with
Jeff Boldt and Herman will calculate using an AHRI Excel
spreadsheet the octave band sound levels that can be
expected from various arrangements of downstream
ductwork without duct lining and flex duct, and in consultation
with Jeff put the results into the Acoustics chapter of the
ASHRAE Duct Design Guide.
ix.
MTG.EAS Idea 26: “Energy Impacts from Air Handler Casing
Leakage” (Herman Behls/Julie Ferguson)
8|Page
x.
xi.
xii.
xiii.
MTG.EAS Idea 27: “Determine Air Leakage of Duct
Transverse Joints and Associated Energy Costs” (Bob Reid).
MTG.EAS Idea 28: “Cost Effectiveness of HVAC System Air
Leakage Tests During Operation” (Jeff Boldt).
MTG.EAS Idea 029. Air Leakage of Duct-Mounted
Equipment
Herman discussed with Jeff Boldt. Herman Behls will prepare
a Work Statement with Jeff for leakage testing of VAV
terminal units and other duct mounted equipment where
leakage data is not available. Herman Behls will take the
lead.
MTG.EAS Idea 037. Cost Effectiveness of HVAC System Air
Leakage Tests during Construction
Herman discussed with Jeff Boldt. Herman Behls will prepare
a Work Statement in consultation with Jeff for developing the
economics (feasibility) of air leakage testing of entire HVAC
systems with emphasis on systems 3 in. water and below.
Jeff Bold will develop the scope.
9|Page
Sub-Committee Meeting Monday, June 30, 2014 (8:00 AM –12:00 AM)
Location: later
a. 8:00 – 10:00 Duct Design Guide (Pat Brooks)
b. 10:00 – 11:00 IF NEEDED…ASHRAE/ADI Duct Size
Calculator (Chris VanRite/Herman Behls)
c. 10:00 – 12:00 Flex duct systems and air duct connectors
(John Hamilton & Ralph Koerber)
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ASHRAE TC5.2 Duct Design Panel Discuss
Lined and Double Wall Ductwork
July 1, 2014 – 5:00 – 6:00 PM
Location to be announced (Same meeting room for TC5.2)
Format
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
each panel member introducing themselves and which organization they represent
I will act as the moderator and present questions to the panel for their response
The response from the panel member(s) will need to be brief and to the point
The goal is not to “solve the problem” but for the members present to gain knowledge and insight
Follow-up questions will be entertained from the audience and/or other panel members
I encourage you to bring samples for display and/or printed material for handouts
TC5.2 will be meeting in the same room between 3:30 – 5:00 PM … PLEASE bring yourself and
material into the room prior to 5 PM
8. We will start on time and we are limited to 60 minutes!
Overview
ASHRAE TC5.2 (duct design) committee is interested in providing relevant information to the
Society regarding the use of double wall construction, internally lined or double wall construction
ductwork, to meet the engineering design objectives as it relates to:
1. Material
a. Elastomeric
b. Fiberglass (0.75 – 1.5 pound per cubic foot density)
c. Fiberglass board (>1.5 pound per cubic foot density)
d. Others
2. Thermal characteristics
3. Antimicrobial requirements
4. Resistance to erosion
5. Noise attenuation
6. Absolute Roughness (e, ft)
7. Indoor Air Quality (IAQ)
8. Indoor Environmental Quality (IEQ)
9. Constructability
a. Rectangular duct & fittings
b. Round duct & fittings
10. Costs
11. Installation issues
12. Reliability
13. VOC’s
14. Is it GREEN?
15. SMACNA Duct Cleanliness For New Construction Guidelines
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16. Other requirements for duct cleanliness?
17. Future duct cleaning issues?
18. Impact on system leakage?
19. Issues with moisture laden air?
The panel participants have agreed to develop a position paper which will be incorporated into the
committees Duct Design Guide and relevant sections of the ASHRAE Handbooks.
Panel Members
1. ASHRAE TC2.6 Sound and Vibration - Robert Hassler, PE ([email protected])
2. McGill Airflow (manufacturer) - Pat Brooks, PE ([email protected])
3. Knauf (manufacturer of fiberglass insulation) - Glenn Brower (to be confirmed)
([email protected])
4. ARMACELL (manufacturer of elastomeric insulation) – Mike Restar
([email protected])
5.
6. ASHRAE TC5.2 Duct Design (consulting engineer) - Herman Behls, PE
([email protected])
7. ASHRAE TC1.8 Insulation - Charles Contrell ([email protected])
8.
ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 62.1-2013 - Ventilation for Acceptable Indoor Air Quality
ASHRAE 62.1 – Dr. Wayne R. Thompson ([email protected])
9. ASTM-E477-13 (Standard Test Method for Laboratory Measurements of Acoustical and
Airflow Performance of Duct Liner Materials and Prefabricated Silencers) - Jerry G. Lilly
(to be confirmed) ([email protected])
10. SMACNA – Eli Howard (to be confirmed)
11. Bob Reid – Technical Director, SPIDA (Spiral Duct Manufacturers Association)
([email protected])
12. Owens Corning Fiberglass (Later) Bob Reid to make contact……
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Question to TC5.2: What is ASHRAE's position on the use of internal duct lining? Source and
date unknown to TC5.2
TC 5.2 (Duct Design) Response
ASHRAE’s duct design technical committee duct encourages designers to design HVAC systems
so as to avoid internal duct liners for acoustical reasons. For internally lined sheet metal ducts for
thermal (heat transfer) purposes it is recommended that the lining material b polymer. More
information on duct liners can be obtained from the following source:
•
“Guidance for Selecting New HVAC Ductwork” by UC Indoor Air Quality Work Group
(http://www.ehs.ucsb.edu/units/ih/ihrsc/ihpdf/ihductliner.pdf)
Response from Thomas Ponder (3/20/14)
My input is that this is a guide and not a specification so we should not be deleting options
but giving guidance on proper use/requirements.
ASHRAE 62.1 discussed and resolved the duct liner IAQ issue years ago and the
following text has been in the standard for a long time. There are also ASTM material
standards that cover these materials and SMACNA and NAIMA have installation
standards that are referenced in the codes. Maybe we just need to reference these
documents in the guide.
ASHRAE TC 2.6 currently has a large duct liner acoustics study going on at UNLV
looking at multiple duct liners, larger duct sizes and longer duct lengths so they apparently
feel that duct liners are an important tool for acoustics.
Maybe some TC2.6 members would have good input for a seminar.
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Herman Behls received the following comment from Thomas Veijalainen (Lindab, Finland). Should I make
this a recommendation in the ASHRAE Duct Design Guide?
I think that in acoustical point of view internal lining is a bit old fashioning. Silencers are very good
nowadays. If we use good primary silencer with fan and secondary silencer if needed we get very good end
result. Here in Nordic countries, especially in Finland we try to avoid internal lining. Reason for this is price
and loose fibers of wool (worse indoor air quality) and also cleaning of duct system. Perforated plate
always collects more dust than sheet metal and is also more difficult to clean. I do understand point that
we do thermal insulation and acoustic insulation at same time, but I can’t prefer it because of risk of low
quality indoor air.
From Herman Behls
(1) Pat Brooks United McGill). There are liners that have an acrylic coating where erosion should be
minimal or negligible with good installation practices. I would just say that any insulation should be
installed such that fibers cannot erode into the air stream or something to that effect.
His other point about Acoustics may be true, but liner can provide both acoustic and thermal values.
Fiberglas fibers are generally considered to be too large to lodge in the lung. I would refer to NAIMA
publications on this though.
(2) Jeff Boldt (Consulting Engineer). It is becoming more common to do it as he describes, but silencers still
always have more pressure drop and are more expensive than an amount of liner or double-wall duct with
the same noise reduction.
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(3) Dan Int-Hout (Krueger). There is zero (zip, nada) data to support any idea that internal lining is in any
way related to poor IAQ.
(4) Larry Smith (Lindab). I am currently seeing an increased awareness for removing fiberglass from the
airstream. Maybe we should reach out to several manufacturers for their input.
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