1. education
2. graduate school
3. college

An Oral Histor y Of Columbia College Chicago
M a r y
E l i z a b e t h
J o h n s o n
I t i s J u n e 8 , 2 0 0 4 , a nd t h i s i s a n
Why?
A n d c a n y o u d e s c r i b e t h e d e pa r t -
i n t e r vi ew wi t h M a r y E l i z a b et h
—because back then twenty-three
years ago, first off, no one traveled
south of Columbus Drive. No one
did. This was pre-South Loop redevelopment. It was like falling off
the edge of the world.
m en t a t t h a t t i m e ?
J oh n s on , t he D i r e c t o r of C r e a t i v e
an d P r i n t i ng S e r v i c e s at C o l u m bi a
C ol l e g e C h i c a g o . A l l r i g h t , M a r y
i f y ou c ou l d t e l l u s , w h at y o u
w e r e d o i n g b ef o r e yo u ca m e t o
C ol um b i a a n d w h e n a n d w h y y ou
ca m e t o t h i s i n s t i t u t i o n .
I was running my own freelance
graphic design business and got
sick and tired of being everybody’s
whore. When you have your own
business and you are freelancing—
if you get a call Sunday night in
the middle of dinner you go—and
you do what they need you to do.
I did that for about a year and a
half. Previous to that, I was working at the School of the Art
Institute where I had gotten my
masters degree. So, I was just sort
of tired having my own business.
And Deb McGrath who was working here, my friend from the Art
Institute—we were colleagues there
at the same time—she majored in
film/video, called me and said there
was an opening and would I care to
apply and I did.
A n d w h a t — at t h a t t i m e w h a t w a s
t h e j o b t h at y o u —j o b de s c ri pt i o n
that—
It started as a junior graphic
designer. My former husband was
head of the graduate school at
SAIC and all of my friends were
professors and teachers and you
know artsy, artsy, artsy. When I
told them that I was coming to
Columbia, they just freaked out—
At the time we had an internal
print shop in the basement, two
full-time printers, later went on to
three full-time printers. There was
Gerry and one designer, one typesetter and that was it. That was it.
C a u s e t h ey we r e a t t h e e d g e ,
And when I first started, the school
right?
was so broke, I had to bring in my
They were at the edge.
own rapidograph, my own Tsquare. The office was so filthy, I
K i nd o f .
came in with a bucket of wash
At the edge yes. And, Columbia
water the day before I started my
back then had such a reputation for job to scrub the walls which had
this rough and tumble unorthodox never been painted.
cowboy school, that my refined
colleagues from the Art Institute
If you wanted to do a poster and
were mortified. But I came any
you wanted an interesting type
way.
font, you would go out and buy
your own transfer lettering. It
A n d j u s t w as t ha t —h a s — d o y o u
would come out of your pocket.
c a l l i t a d e pa r t m e nt ? H a s i t
a l w a ys b e e n c a l l e d c r ea t i ve a nd
p r i n t i n g s er v i c e s ?
Yes.
O k a y.
Yes. And it was a department when
I started here. Gerry Gall was the
director. Gerry (Bert’s brother) not
only ran that department, but he
also was the techy for the Art
Department. So, he bought and
ordered art supplies. He took care
of faculty needs. So, he’d cross the
hall and do that job and then he’d
cross the hall back to office and do
his job. The Art Department was
on the 13th floor in the main
building back then which is why
we are still there. Nobody can
understand why we are on the 13th
floor. Well, it was because Gerry
took care of the Art and Design
Department as well.
T h a t ’ s i n t er e s t i ng . S o , a nd t h a t
was ‘82.
Eighty-two, yes.
65
It was very lean and mean. And
you know those of us that have
lingered long here and see the
money being spent left and right,
M a r y
An Oral Histor y Of Columbia College Chicago
I’m still at the point where if I accidentally go home with a pen that
belongs to Columbia, I bring it
back because there’s that preciousness about limited resources that us
old people feel even today that the
newer people don’t.
I remember the first Christmas
party I attended was in the fifth
floor board room. That’s how small
the college was.
I t he l d ev e r y b o d y.
Yes, it held everybody and Debbie
McGrath and Anne Kennedy went
to the Dominicks and bought food
for the party and brought it back.
And you ran to cash your paycheck
because if you waited too long,
your paycheck would bounce
because everybody else would cash
theirs. And the staff and faculty
directory was one side of an eight
and a half by eleven sheet of paper.
W h a t , i f yo u ca n r e m e m b er b ac k
t h e n , y o ur f i r s t i m p r es s i o n s . Yo u
t a l k e d a b o ut y o u r i m pr e s s i o n s
b e f o r e y o u g o t h e r e an d yo u r
c o l l e a g u e s a t t h e a r t i ns t i t ut e .
I walked into this building and I
said to myself, I like the job, I don’t
know if I could spend 8 hours a
day in the ugliest building in the
world. It was filthy and it was
falling apart. It wasn’t urban chic, it
was just old and tired. And being a
visual person, oh, my God, I
thought it was going to ruin my
brain if I had to stay here all day.
And then I decided to take the job.
I was also briefly taken aback by
the power structure, the control,
the influence that Bert had. The
culture of Columbia was so primal
back then. The 5th floor was just a
cloud of black smoke, as soon as
you got off the elevators because
everybody smoked, everybody. At
lot of business was conducted after
hours in the dark because it was
such a night culture at the college.
It was an alcoholic culture. There
was a lot of booze flowing. It was,
it was very—
E l i z a b e t h
J o h n s o n
faculty retreats and come back and
tell who was having sex with whom
in the swimming pool after hours. I
mean it was a very sexual culture.
Yes, it was.
And it was raw power as well. Bert
controlled the college completely.
Ve r y di f f e r e n t f r o m wh a t I h a d
When I started MA had already
k n o wn .
On a Friday afternoon in the
begun to be ill and distracted and
summertime,Gerry would break
started withdrawing from the
out beer in the office and we would actual work of the college.
sit and drink beer while we finished
So, Bert had really taken over and
up our Friday work. It was totally
had consolidated his powers. And
Bohemian, totally Bohemian.
Bert was a one-man show; you
know one lived or died by Bert’s
Was i t — an d I do n ’ t w a n t t o p u t
sword. I remember when Jerry
w o r d s i n y o ur m o u t h , b u t wa s i t
would go on vacation and I would
at a l l a m a l e c u l t u r e ?
It was a sexist culture. Sexual
order paper for the print shop, Bert
harassment was constant, prevalent signed every purchase order
and remember back then, you had request, every one. And we filled
to take it as a female or lose your
them out by hand.
job. So, there was a lot of abuses
going on and a lot of pressure. And So, if you needed a hundred sheets
of paper for $1.40, he looked at it
it was really distasteful.
and approved every single P.O. that
Now, that I look back upon it, you went through this college whether
know a lot of things happened that it was paperclips, or a $6,000 piece
were outrageous. But it was a very
of equipment. So, he knew everysexual culture, very gender
thing that was being purchased.
oriented. But it was the time as
A n d w h at —w h e n d i d t h at s t a r t t o
well. I mean it was pre-Aids, preherpes and just no boundaries there ch a n g e ? I m e a n d i d t h e g r o wt h o f
t h e c o l l e g e wh e n d i d t h e a t m o s whatsoever between faculty and
p h e r e — f r o m y ou r po i n t o f v i e w,
staff and administration. It was
wh e n a n d w h a t s t a r t s t o c h an g e?
crazy.
I think that first Bert just started
A n d s o m e o t h e r s h av e co m m e n t e d being crushed by the sheer scale
and scope of it. And we waited
as w e l l t o o w i t h s t u d e n t s , i t wa s
longer and longer for P.O.s because
so small and that those (inaudithey weren’t getting signed.
b l e ) a n d t h e y w e r e o l d er —
Right.
When Bert was also given the position of Provost, and he started
—t ha t t h e r e —
No boundaries. No protocol what- paying attention to academic issues
soever. I mean everybody was
and curriculum issues and policy
having sex with everybody. And
and he wasn’t paying attention to
you know people would go the
facilities management as close as he
was. You could feel that shift at
66
M a r y
E l i z a b e t h
J o h n s o n
least as administrative staff when he
became Provost. I felt that his eye
wasn’t so much on my stuff but it
had shifted over to the academic.
But then when Dr. Duff came
along, it really changed dramatically and it became a very different
institution.
And you know Columbia reinvents
itself with every new president and
that’s really the watermark that I
see. Duff came along and it was a
crazy year and a half. And then Dr.
Carter came along. It’s been a crazy
four or five years. And the institution has evolved with each president.
I ’ m c u r i o u s wi t h y o u r d e pi ct i o n o f
t he m i n d of s e x ua l e l e ct r i c i t y o r
t he c ul t u r e . W h e n d o e s t h a t
c u l t u r e, i f y ou wi l l , s t ar t t o s h i f t
o r ch a n g e ? A n d d o y o u s ee t h a t
t ha t i s b e i n g k i n d of ab s en t t o d a y
so it is kind of two extr emes?
It started to shift when Duff
became president and Bert lost a
tremendous amount of power.
When Duff came all of a sudden.
Columbia stopped being the rock
band with all its groupies and
turned into a real college. And
issues became different, how issues
were resolved became much more
typical academic protocol. It
changed almost over night.
An Oral Histor y Of Columbia College Chicago
doing typesetting named Sherry
who was married to a wild black
jazz musician. And then the two
guys in the print shop. And then a
couple years later another gentleman was added in the print shop.
So, there were three printers. And
Kevin Riordan was hired as a techy.
So it grew a little bit. And that
shop did not grow at all until I
became director.
(inaudible)
No. No. We did add one more
designer. We added one more
designer so there were two designers, a director, a typesetter, a techy
and two print shop guys even
though the college went from as
tiny as it was it as huge as it was.
So, it was—it was absolutely
insane. The work load was crushing. So, a lot of work had to be
turned away. As it was we couldn’t
service the entire college. We could
just do a certain very few pieces.
And back then Columbia was so
broke, nobody could hire freelance
graphic designers. That was an
incredible no, no. All the work had
to be designed internally. So, there
were times when I was working 7
days a week, 20 hours a day literally.
C an y ou t a l k a b o ut b e c au s e I
t h i n k i t ’ s i n t e r e s t i n g a nd e ve n
I’ve also hired a creative production
coordinator and business production coordinator in the office and
they handle a lot of the non-design
work so that the designers can
continue doing design instead of
calling up printers to get quotes
like I used to have to do. They just
do design and the detailed stuffed
gets handed off to Corey or John.
So, we do all the work that comes
through our door. And it ranges
from the mundane like a book
marker for the library to a
$170,000 very expensive high end
marketing piece.
A n d s o i f s om e o ne c om e s t o y o u
an d s a y s I ’ m d oi ng t hi s ev e n t ,
w h e r e d o es i t g o f r o m t h e r e ?
Because unfortunately we don’t
have any copywriters on staff, you
have to bring me your copy, and
any images you may want to use. If
not, we have a library of photographs that we use and we use a lot
of student artwork to illustrate the
pieces. So, you’d come to me. You’d
sit down. You’d give me some art
direction. Who is your audience,
when is this going to hit, what look
do you want. Of course now we
have identity standards and we are
beginning to brand the college
which is a whole new chapter for
Columbia.
t o d ay p eo p l e d o n ’ t r e al i z e t h e
O k a y. A nd l e t ’ s t a l k a b i t m o r e
de s i g n w or k i n v o l v ed i n p r o m o -
a b o u t y o u r d e p a r t m e n t an d ho w
t i o n s f o r t h e a c t i v i t i e s f or t h e
t ha t g r e w a n d c h a ng e d f r o m y ou
i n s t i t u t i o n , a nd i f y ou c ou l d e l a b-
c a m e a s a j u n i o r g r ap h i c
or a t e o n t h a t .
d e s i g n e r. C a n yo u k i n d o f t ak e u s
We do, we do—now we do probat h r o ug h y o u r p r o m o t i o n —
bly most of the design except for
Sure.
the Dance Department season
brochure, and the theater season
— y o u k n o w t o w h er e w e a r e
departmental brochures. But
t od a y a n d —
because I now have four designers
When I first started, I was a junior
full time and two student interns in
designer and Gerry was the director
my tenure as director, I’ve never
and then there was this crazy lady
had to turn a job away which I am
very proud of.
67
In the old days, Columbia was so
entrepreneurial and the department
chairs were so strong that they
would come to us and say, well I
want a brochure that doesn’t look
anything like that brochure that Ed
Morris just did. I want it to look
like my department.
So, we had how ever many departments there were back then, twelve
separate identities. Every department had to look different than the
M a r y
An Oral Histor y Of Columbia College Chicago
next department. Alexandroff
backed this up because when he
started the school he called his
buddies in the business world,
entrepreneurs most of them, said
come on down, chair a department
and let’s start a college. So, that
work ethic and that sense of independence and that ferocious need
to make a mark stayed until those
chairs retired. So, now we have to
conform with the branding standards and the graphic identity standards of my office and (inaudible)
still allowing wiggle room so people
can feel as if their program or event
has some distinctiveness without
violating the branding of the
college.
E l i z a b e t h
J o h n s o n
A n d d i d t ha t h a ve t o do wi t h i t
A n d I w o nd e r i f yo u as k t h o s e
r e p u t a t i o n t ha t t h e y d i d n ’ t s ee
pe o p l e ( i n a u d i b l e ) o h, n o t h a t ’ s
t h em s e l v e s a s f i t t i n g i n w i t h t h i s
no t w h at w e — s o w a s i t u nc o n -
t y pe s c h o ol o r c o w b oy, y o u
scious?
No, no. No, I don’t think so. I
It had to do with the fact that if
think they worked at it. I really
they felt they were associated with
think they worked at it and it
Columbia their prestige would be
worked for them. Many of these
diminished. And now of course
people maintained that they couldyou know with Dr. Duff coming
n’t have possibly gotten their fundon board and Dr. Carter coming
ing unless they have such a strong
on board and the overall reputation singular presence—they would
of Columbia beginning to blossom, have lost the funding because of
people are becoming much more
issues with Columbia which was
willing to surrender their individual always viewed with the jaundiced
identity to the identity of the
eye for so many years.
college.
know—
A n d y o u s a i d t h a t — ag a i n , I d o n’ t
And we still are the world’s bestkept secret. People don’t know
about us. They know certain
T h a t ’ s v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g b e c a us e
y o u r k i nd o f u ni q u e p e r s p e c t i v e o f departments, they know certain
people. A cab driver will say to me,
t o l o o k at t he s t r u c t u r e of t h e
Columbia, how many students go
c o l l e g e n ot f r o m w i t h i n i n s o m e
there. And I’ll say almost 10,000.
w a ys b u t f r o m wi t h o ut . C an y ou
m ay b e t a l k a l i t t l e b i t m o r e a b o u t They have no idea how many
buildings we have. How many
that transit ion and the need for
majors we have. How many
m ay b e t h at s t r u c t u r e a n d h o w
students we have. And you know
t h a t h a s ch a n g e d ?
that’s the job the new Assistant
Columbia always used to be—it’s
VP for Marketing and
parts always used to be stronger
Communications, Mark Lloyd and
than the whole, always. So, the
parts wanted to distance themselves Sam Ross, the new Institutional
Advancement VP. They need to get
from the reputation of Columbia.
the word out there that Columbia
Because the Museum for instance
has matured, has value and the sum
had a much stronger reputation
of its parts is the greater whole.
than the college did. They always,
The Museum is now coming back
always wanted to separate themto the fold. Rod Slemmons has
selves from any identity with
been a fabulous advocate for reColumbia College. They just
joining in the Columbia family and
wanted to be the Museum of
using Columbia’s resources and
Contemporary Photography. The
making it very clear that they are
same is true of the Arts
part of Columbia College Chicago.
Entertainment and Media
So, it’s getting much better. And of
Management Department, the
course the college benefits as a
Film Department, the Dance
whole. The Dancer Center, the
Department, these people
Season, they used to just want to
purposely wanted to disassociate
be known as Mordine and
themselves from Columbia.
Company and the Dance Center.
And Columbia College Chicago
was six point type at the bottom of
the brochure.
68
wa n t t o p u t w or d s i n y o u r m ou t h,
A l e x a n d r o f f s u pp o r t e d t h e b u t h e
al s o —h e wa s a w a r e o f t hi s bu t i t
wo r k ed f o r h i m ?
It worked for him. It was, it was his
business model and he—you know
if you read his history book—he’s
constantly agonizing over where’s
the money coming from, where’s
the money coming from. Yet on
the other hand he supported that
chair, strong chair, entrepreneurial,
silo-like academic structure.
Because in many ways it was
(inaudible) it was much more fun.
It was, it was sexier. The energy
that was happening, the cross-pollination that was happening, the
competition that was happening, it
was a lot more exciting than the
traditional academic model that we
are following now.
A n d y o u s a i d i t al m o s t k i l l e d h i m
personally?
He’s commented on that one
reason he had to retire was that
that horrible battle that resulted
from dividing the English
Department and creating Fiction
Writing. Dividing the baby with
the sword to make the two depart-
M a r y
E l i z a b e t h
J o h n s o n
ments he thought was the beginning of his health issues. It was so
stressful.
An Oral Histor y Of Columbia College Chicago
I m e a n t ha t — I t hi nk t ha t t o o
f r om t h e o u t s i d e of s o m e o n e
r e a d i n g j u s t a d e s c r i p t i o n of t h i s
ha p p e n i n g wo u l d n o t b e s ur p r i s ed
W hy wa s h e — I m e a n w h y w a s
t h a t t h at w o u l d h a ve h ap p e n e d a t
t ha t ? I m e a n I do n ’ t w a n t t o
all.
d i m i n i s h t h a t a t a l l b ut I t hi n k
Right, right, exactly.
p e o p l e a r e c ur i o u s , wh y w o u l d h e
t ak e i t s o p e r s o n al l y a n d n o t be
S o, y o u ’ r e s a yi n g t ha t w a s al s o
a b l e t o s ay yo u k n o w—
p a r t o f w ha t ’ s g oi ng o n . B e c a us e
Because he loved everyone of those
people. Everyone of those chairs
was like his child. I remember
Mike walking down the hall one
day in front of the cashier’s office
when the college started to grow
and he turned around and he
looked and me and he said, who
the fuck are all these people around
here? And for him he began to lose
the intimacy, that sense of dysfunctional family that we loved. When
the college started to grow he
started to lose that, that touch with
everyone.
i n t e l l e c t u a l l y h e m i g h t h a ve s a i d ,
t h i s i s n ’ t ne c e s s a r i l y s ur p r i s i ng
bu t e m o t i o na l l y h e c o ul d n ’ t —
Yes, yes, it was a very emotional
place to be. Emotions were always
highly charged all the time.
Because we were, still are tuition
driven, Bert would pace those hallways counting heads of students
lining up to pay their money to
enroll. The drama of registration
was like the solar eclipse. It was
just—it was just a moment in time
that was so tense because the very
of the future of the school
depended on how many heads
He and I used to sit down and he’d walked through those doors. The
say what did you do on the weekacademic calendar and the ebb and
end? I’d tell him what I did and
flow of the stress points and the
you know the college president and release points really seemed to me
I would have talks about what we
as a staff person like the summer
did on the weekend. It was, it was solstice and the winter solstice if
a very intimate—everybody knew
you will. We were so broke for so
everybody’s personal issues and
long. It’s like any family crying
problems and who was going to
how’s the electric bill going to get
bed with whom.
paid. Well, bring that into the
workplace, day after, day after day.
S o , i t w a s t h a t — i t wa s l i t er a l l y
t ha t t h o s e i n d i vi du a l s t h a t h e —
Ye a h, I t h i n k t h a t ’ s i nt er e s t i n g
w h o p h i l o s o p h i c a l l y p a r t e d w a ys
be c a u s e I t h i n k t o d ay e ve r y b o d y
a n d i n c ol l e g e t ha t w a s g r o w i n g ,
k n o w s C ol u m b i a s t i l l h as h u g e
h e c o u l d n ’ t a c ce p t t h a t . I s n ’ t
f i n a n c i a l d i f f i c ul t i e s . B u t I d o n ’ t
t ha t i n t e r e s t i n g .
t h i n k a ny o n e i n d i v i d u al l y w o nd e r s
Yes, yes. He had to let it happen
because that was the only solution
but it, it broke his heart and you
know Mike Alexandroff was an
intellectual—a firestorm must have
been going on in his brain while
this was happening. I’m sure it was
debilitating.
ho w t h e e l e c t r i c b i l l i s g o i n g t o
be p ai d.
And back then, everybody did. It
was a collective anxiety that we all
bore everyday. I mean how many
paperclips am I going to need to
69
use. Will my rapidograph not
work, will I have to bring in
another one? You know, those
people, the Tony Loebs, the Nate
Lehrmans, the Ed Morrises, those
people that started way back when,
yes you can have your issues with
them, you can talk about lack of
professionalism, but they stuck by
Mike Alexandroff and the college
and served it morning, noon and
night, and served the college very
well.
We l l , l e t ’ s p au s e h e r e .
Okay, okay.
And then we’r e going to come
ba c k a f t e r a s h o r t b r e a k .
Okay.
O k a y. We ’ r e c o n t i n u i n g t h e i n t e r vi ew wi t h M a r y E l i z a b et h
J oh n s on , D i r e ct o r o f C r e a t i v e an d
P r i n t i ng S e r v i c e s he r e a t
C ol um b i a . I f I c o u l d a s k yo u j u s t
t o e l a b o r at e , br i e f l y e l a b o r at e o n
t h e a t m o s p h er e a t t h e c o l l e g e
wh e n y o u w e r e f i r s t he r e f r o m t h e
prospective as a woman.
It pervaded the entire college. It
was everywhere at every time at
every moment in every business
dealing and it was yucky. And back
then you had to take it as a
woman. It was before sexual harassment in the workplace even had a
name. It came from the top down.
You were harassed constantly. You
accepted it because it was just part
of the ebb and flow of the day. It
got to be pretty brutal. One time
and individual that worked at
Columbia that was very high up in
the ranks sat opposite me at the
drafting table and just said I bet
you’re a great fuck, and blew my
mind. He was a married guy. And
that happened all the time.
Another time a very high-up executive repeatedly asked me to meet
M a r y
An Oral Histor y Of Columbia College Chicago
him in the lobby of the Hilton for
martinis after hours to discuss business and things got pretty out of
hand and some Chicago cops came
over and asked me if I needed to
have this person taken off me
because he was French kissing me
even though he knew I was married
and my husband was in our
apartment a few blocks away. It
happened all the time.
brought us some measure of power
and respect and positioned us in
the environment where it was raw
power at all times.
C ou l d yo u s p e ak t o o t h e r s s i n c e
yo u c a m e i n w i t h. Was i t t we n t y t h r e e y e a r s s h e s a i d, ot he r p os i t i v e d e ve l o p m en t s t h i n g s c h an g e s
t h at y o u ’ v e s e en t h a t yo u t h i n k
ha s b e n ef i t t ed t h e i n s t i t u t i on .
ab o u t t h i s n o w i f t h a t h as n ’ t
Having more money obviously. You
know everybody can breathe.
Everybody can cash their paycheck
whenever they so choose. The
growing professionalism is a boon
in a way. I don’t get people screaming at me in my offices any more.
Why the fuck did you do that?
There was a lot of bad behavior
back then. I remember sitting in a
president’s council meeting and a
faculty—a chair got up and
another chair got up and they
started yelling and screaming at
each other across the table, fuck
you, fuck that, fuck you, fuck
yours. I mean that’s not acceptable
at any time, at any point.
ch a n g e d an d yo u s p o k e t o t h a t .
Yo u k n o w w h e n t h a t c ha n g e a n d
t h at y o u ’ r e c o n f i d e n t a n d s e c ur e
n o w. H o w d o s e i t f e e l t o h a ve
t h at c u l t u r e ?
It’s fabulous. On the other hand
a b o ut t he s e i s s u e s i s w el l w h y
there’s a passion that missing today.
d i d y o u p a r t i c i p a t e an d wo m en
There’s a sense of the heart and
a r e a l w ay s a s k e d t o d ef e n d
soul of the college has been
t h e m s e l v e s i n t h a t w ay, b u t I
replaced by corporatization of the
t h i n k y o u s ho u l d ad d r es s t h a t .
college and all this emphasis on
W h a t , w h a t wa s t h e at m o s ph e r e ?
professionalism and best practices
H o w d i d t h es e p e o p l e g et a w a y
and the round of firings getting rid
with it?
of Steven Russell Thomas for
Because of their power and their
instance. There seems to be a
status and it’s hard to understand— cleansing of the college. Those
but our Human Resources office is people are different, not underonly 10, 12 years old. We didn’t
stood. And, it’s becoming ho-hum
have a Human Resources office
like a DePaul, like a Northwestern.
much less equity issues office.
Some of the good things that made
There was nowhere to turn because Columbia so singular that went
it was a dictatorship. It was not a
away as well as some of the bad
democracy. There was no place to
stuff went away.
air your feelings.
f r e q u en t r es p o ns e w h e n I t a l k
D o y ou t h i n k t h e y c o u l d h a v e
A n d di d y o u f e e l t h a t y o u d i d n ’ t
k e p t t h os e p o s i t i v e t h i n g s or —
h a v e a c h o i c e i n , i n ag r e e i n g t o
m a y be t h e e c c e nt r i c i t y c o u l d
t h e s e m e e t i n g s . I m e an d i d y o u
ha v e b e e n k ep t w h i l e g e t t i n g r i d
f e el t h a t y ou r j o b w ou l d h av e
of t h at h o s t i l e e n v i r o n m e n t ?
been at risk?
I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I
think that’s a natural evolution of
things. I think as institutions grow
and become more professional it
takes a real balancing act to keep
the eccentricity, get rid of the bad
stuff and keep the good stuff. I
don’t think it can happen. I really
think it’s too complicated. It’s too
hard of a goal to reach. It think it’s
just the price you pay.
Yes, absolutely. If not my job at
risk, and—this is the tradeoff, my
ability to maneuver and get what I
want and be respected would not
have been there had I not played
the game. So, that’s the tradeoff
with participating with sexual
harassment. There is a strange
benefit because you are empowered. So, that’s why we did it.
Being allowed to be abused
J o h n s o n
C l ea r l y yo u wo u l d n ’ t b e t al k i n g
t h at a b s e n t , t ha t a t m o s p h er e
I t hi n k a n d I k n o w t h i s a s w el l , a
E l i z a b e t h
70
So, there is a collegiality that has
come with the maturation of the
college that is much more acceptable. You know the very best parts
of Columbia have not changed and
will never change. And two most
important things that Columbia
taught me as a person: today I am
utterly and completely colorblind. I
can be talking to any person in the
world at any point in time and two
hours later I’ll say oh, that was a
Black person or that was an
Oriental person. Or that person
was you know gay or lesbian.
Columbia taught me to be colorblind, gender blind, you name it.
And that life’s lesson I will thank
Columbia for. I’m a better person
because of that. And, Bert, despite
all of his issues, treated every
person the same. Whether you
were a chair, or whether were
Richard Woods on the facilities
M a r y
E l i z a b e t h
J o h n s o n
staff who hauls things up from the
loading dock and assembles your
furniture for you. There was a
nobility every man and woman had
that worked at Columbia regardless
of rank. So, that—that was the
second gift that Columbia gave me
and one I will never forget. And
today those two gifts are constantly
given to everyone that works here
or goes to school here. Unlike the
elitism at the School of the Art
Institute, not one black student in
my entire class, not one black
faculty member.
A nd d o y o u t h i n k t h a t wi t h t ho s e
lessons, will it be harder or do
y o u s ee t h a t t h a t r e s p e c t o f
d i v e r s i t y t h a t t a u g h t a nd yo u s a y
t ha t y o u t h i n k i t w i l l c on t i nu e .
But do you see that being thr eatened at all with the college being
mor e expensive and—
An Oral Histor y Of Columbia College Chicago
you were allowed to bloom and to
mature. Traditional white men’s
hurdles were not put in your way
to be a success.
It was the mission living everyday
at Columbia when it was small.
Everyday somebody that couldn’t
have succeeded someplace else
succeeded here.
I mean my husband used to teach
here, my second husband, he
taught in the Art Department,
Interior Design. He had kids in his
class who could not read a ruler
and did not know what an inch
was. And there was no way to get
them up to speed so that they
could become an architect or an
interior decorator. But we took
their tuition dollars and then they
drop out and then we get in trouble because our attrition rates are
so high, and the cycle continues.
Of course, and you know the
numbers are declining. We all
W h a t o t he r ch a l l e n g e s d o y o u s e e
know that there are fewer minorif a c i n g t h e c o l l e g e? O r w h a t h a s
ties and ethnicities involved today
be e n t h e m o s t i m p o r t a n t c h a l than years ago. Our kids have to
l e ng e s s i n c e — s i n c e y o u’ v e c o m e .
stay in the dorm now their freshI m e a n y o u ’ v e t al k e d a b o ut s o m e
man year and pay tuition which
c e r t a i n l y.
means we are the exact same costs
I
think the challenge will be to—
as a year at DePaul. Everything
this
is an old admission slogan that
economic drives diversity or lack of
everybody
hated—realize it’s potenit absolutely.
tial, really grow up, start a capital
campaign, get an endowment, not
I also think that leadership, some
levels of leadership they talk diver- be tuition driven, be able to offer
students all of the amenities of any
sity but they don’t walk diversity.
other college, if it is to survive. A
I’m not seeing that. Mike
Alexandroff had that commitment student center, microwaves in the
hallways, places where students can
to diversity. Imagine back then
sit and talk. Even in the old days
when the school was so small, it
when we were the cheapest school
didn’t matter if you didn’t have a
around it didn’t matter. And our
high school diploma or couldn’t
hallways were urban rough and
read a ruler because attention was
so focused on you, your brilliance, unappealing.
your core competence whatever
But nowadays there is such compethat might be was discovered and
tition for good students. I really
think that’s the major challenge
ahead of us. The academic restruc-
71
ture that’s done, the identity that
we’re working on now will help get
us there, if we really need to grow
more to be able to do more exciting things to keep up with the
technology. It’s endless. It’s just
endless.
W h a t d o yo u m i s s t h e m os t t h a t ’ s
no l o n g e r h e r e ?
What a great question. I would
have to say Ed Morris. He loved
me so of course I loved him. He
was cantankerous and feisty but a
fabulous gentleman, well-traveled,
well-read, very sophisticated, great
sense of style.
I also miss Nat Lerman. Nat was a
great guy. Tony Loeb. Tony was
fabulous and exciting and an artist.
Though they committed many
sins, it is the group that I miss the
most.
D oe s i t —d o yo u s t r u g g l e w i t h
ha v i n g m i x ed f e e l i n g a b ou t
yeah—
Totally. Totally. It’s looking back at
your adolescence and the crazy wild
things we all did and going oh, my
god we survived to adulthood. And
you look back on it through the
midst of time with a sense of
romance and longing and danger
and unpredictability. And now,
everyday I come to work I know
pretty much exactly that’s going to
happen.
Back then you never knew what
the hell was going to happen.
B ut i t ’ s i n t e r e s t i n g t ha t y o u h a ve
de s c ri be d t h e c o l l e g e as k i n d o f
i n s om e w a y s as a n i n di v i d u a l
g r ow i n g u p . T ha t y o u k no w t h os e
ea r l y ye a r s w er e d a n g e r o u s
t e e na g e o r y o u n g ad u l t h o o d a n d
c r e e pi ng o l d a g e .
We are all grown up and boring
and ho-hum and very safe and
M a r y
An Oral Histor y Of Columbia College Chicago
predictable and respectable and I
think that is a natural evolution.
Most entrepreneurial companies/
colleges go through that evolution
and then they reach a point where
they have to mature in order to
survive, or the collapse inward on
themselves. That’s standard business model and I think Columbia
followed that.
And there were no jobs in graphic
design anywhere. People are still
trying to recover from that. So,
then the economy kept me the
second time.
E l i z a b e t h
J o h n s o n
need to look to Sam to bring
money into this college for everyone’s success. The people that I
credit for being brilliant and keeping Columbia alive, Murphy
Monroe in admissions is fabulous
and Debra McGrath. Debbie is
probably the most brilliant person
in the workplace I have ever known
and her brilliance in her field is so
important to the college. And I
view Deb as my mentor here.
But overall my longevity speaks for
the college. I worked the Field
Museum, Shedd Aquarium, School
of the Art Institute, private agencies, had my own business and this
Because you just can’t underestistill is the best. It still is the best
mate the power and the charisma
because and this is very Mike
of Mike Alexandroff who kept it all Alexandrian, you can invent your- Sh e br o ug h t yo u he r e y o u
together. When Mike was on and
self everyday. You can decide what m e n t i o n e d e a rl i e r. I w o u l d h a v e
speaking to a group or an individ- you want to do, what you want to l ov e d t o h a ve h ea r d s om e o f y o u r
ual, he was something to behold.
focus on, what your interest is. You co n v e rs a t i o n s o ve r yo u r t e nu r e .
He was magnificent, attractive,
can craft your job to make it the
W h en d i d s he g e t h e r e ?
charismatic, articulate, compelling. work of art that you want it to be. She was here long before I was. She
And his leadership kept it all going. There’s still is—though we are
started working—
You would remember the last time becoming more corporate—a lot of
Mike spoke about something you
freedom to focus on what you want We r e y o u a b l e t o t a l k t o e a c h
ot he r a bo u t i s s u es o r —
believed in or he believed in. And
to.
No.
that charismatic leadership is and
And I have been able since I’ve
was so important.
been director to really do with my Sh e wa s y o u r m en t o r.
Back then women didn’t talk to
I w a n t e d t o a s k y o u w h at k e pt
office what I have wanted to do.
women about it. Never a word. I
y o u h e r e be c a u s e yo u t a l k e d
My boss, Mike DeSalle is the best
a b o ut s o m e y o u k n ow p r e t t y
boss I’ve ever had in my life. Mike never shared my experiences with
anyone nor did anyone ever share
n e g a t i ve f o r c e s a n d c o n s t a n t
is sweet, kind, gracious, normal
theirs with me.
f o r c e a s w e l l . W h a t k e p t yo u he r e and has given me everything I’ve
o v e r t h o s e ye a r s a n d w h at k e ep s
asked for. When I wanted new
Se e , I t h i n k a n d w e o n l y ha v e a
y o u h e r e t o d ay ?
staff, he gave it to me. When I
f e w m i n ut e s l ef t b ut I t hi nk f o r
There was a point in time when I
wanted a new space I got it. And
yo u n g w om e n o r w o m e n wh o
was going to quit. Many, many
he’s basically left me alone and
h a v e n ’ t h a d a s i m i l ar — a n e x p e ri years ago I was very fed up. But
trusted me to do a good job.
en c e i n t h e w o r k p l a c e i n t h e
then I got breast cancer. And when
w o r k f o r c e i n a c o r p o ra t e o r
So, I stayed here because of Mike
you get cancer, you’re tied to your
ac a d e m i c an d f o r m e n t h e y h a v e
DeSalle to a great degree.
insurance and preexisting condino i d ea w ha t y o u’ r e t a l k i n g
tions. And that compelled me to
T h a t ’ s i n t e r e s t i n g b e ca u s e y ou
ab o u t . B u t w hy no t ? W h y ( i n a u d i stay more than anything else. I’ve
k i n d o f d e s c r i b e i t m o r e no t f r o m
b l e ) h a v i ng t h es e i n f o r m a l c on v e r read articles from the cancer
on t o p b u t f r om w i t hi n y o ur c ha i n
sation wit h the pr esident wouldsurvivors who have said their
of c o m m a n d s o t o s p e ak . Yo u ’ v e
n ’ t yo u s a y y o u k no w wh a t ,
careers stood still from the moment
g o t s o m e o f t h a t f r ee d o m a nd
what’s going on is r eally wrong.
that they were diagnosed.
And that sort of kept me here even
though it was a battle a long time
ago. And then the economy tanked
when I considered leaving again.
(inaudible) design, str ucture
And I think that that—I mean I
( i n a u d i b l e ). A n yo n e e l s e t o d a y i n
un d e r s t a n d i t b u t I t h i n k t h a t ’ s
ad d i t i on t o M i k e D e S al l e w h o y o u
t h e b i g q u es t i o n m a r k t h a t we
s e e a s k ey t o c o l l e g e’ s c oh e s i on
s t i l l h a v e— t h a t w e h a ve n ’ t f a c ed .
or s u c c e s s o r s t r e n g t h o r f u t u r e
Th a t y es w e h a v e a s e x u al
t h at y o u c a r e t o m e n t i o n ?
I think the person on the hot seat
right now is Sam Ross. We really
72
M a r y
E l i z a b e t h
J o h n s o n
An Oral Histor y Of Columbia College Chicago
h a r a s s m e n t p o l i c y bu t p e op l e a r e
A n d s t r e n g t h a n d s up p o r t .
l i k e w h y d i d yo u pu t u p w i t h t h a t .
Yes. Yes, very much so. I never
talked about it but you did talk
about all the other issues that were
whirling around.
O r wh y di dn ’ t yo u t a l k t o o t he r
w o m e n or w hy di dn ’ t yo u do
s o m e t h i n g a b ou t i t ? A n d d o yo u
h a v e a n y t h o u g h t s o n wh y ?
I think because it’s so—it’s like why We l l , I w a nt t o t h a n k y ou f o r t h e
i n t e r v i e w. B u t i n o u r l as t
don’t children talk about incest?
Why don’t women talk about being m o m e n t , i s t h e r e a n y t h i n g e l s e
t h a t m a y be I d i d n’ t g e t t o or
raped or being abused by their
spouse? It is so personally revolting d i d n ’ t t o u ch o n, y o u k n o w.
and embarrassing and humiliating No.
that you don’t talk about it. You
didn’t talk about it back then. And S o, I r e a l l y a p p r e c i a t e i t .
Thank you.
it plays to your sense of lack of
worth. I must not be worth it to be
treated this way; it strikes to your
lack of self-esteem.
A nd p ow e r o r l a ck of .
Right.
S o , I m ea n i f w e g e t s om e wh a t
philosophical about i t, but t alki n g t o a n ot h er p er s o n t h a t a l s o
d o e s n ’ t h a v e t h a t p ow e r or i s
k i n d o f a t yo u r s a m e l e ve l —
Wouldn’t have solved a thing. And
it’s deeply embarrassing. You just
didn’t talk it. Just like back then
you didn’t talk about lots of other
things. Another person I do have to
mention is my best buddy here at
Columbia whom you interviewed,
Paula Epstein who you know has
been here for a very long time and
is the real salt of the earth, soul
mate and there are many days I
don’t think I could have survived
here if it wouldn’t have been for
Paula’s love and friendship and
presence here.
S o , t h e r e w er e p e o p l e y o u d i d n ’ t
t al k ab o u t i t , t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e
you r elied on or wer e able to—
Talk about other stuff.
73
An Oral Histor y Of Columbia College Chicago