K24.1031
- 666 -
Y es .
you were
that
XABA
So f o r s o m e d a y s p r i o r to t h e d a t e of t h e m a s s a c r e
already working
at B o i p a t o n g
police
station?
-- Yes,
is so.
An d t h e r e a s o n t h a t y o u g a v e f o r n o t g o i n g to w o r k fo r
about eight days
a f t e r t h e m a s s a c r e b e i n g t h a t t h e r e was
transport available
is t h e r e f o r e
no t t r u e ?
--
(Was
no
it a f t e r the
massacre?)
Y es .
--
It w a s t r u e .
Now,
if y o u w e r e w o r k i n g
phone for t ransport?
--
at B o i p a t o n g ,
A c c o r d i n g to my o b s e r v a t i o n s ,
s t a t i o n c o m m a n d e r at B o i p a t o n g w a s
us w o r k i n g t h e r e ,
at t h e t i m e .
not a c t u a l l y
Now
k n o w l e d g e t h a t we m i g h t be w e l c o m e
I'm s o r r y ,
go t h e r e ,
that answer makes
kn o w i n g well
this
person would
go.
On t h e d a y s t h a t
for t r a n s p o r t
You know,
that
I was
it w a s
the
(10
in f a v o u r of
g o i n g t h e r e w i t h th e
to h i m o r we m a y not.
no s e n s e to me.
--
I would
not s t a t i o n e d t h e re
us.
B u t at s o m e t i m e s ,
I did not r e p o r t for duty,
you told
v e r y k e e n to w o r k ,
I wa s
not w e l c o m e
until
w h y d i d y o u h a v e to
because
would
n ot
I would wait
late.
us e a r l i e r t h i s m o r n i n g t h a t y o u w e r e
y o u p u t on y o u r u n i f o r m e v e r y d a y
w a n t e d to go to w o r k e v e r y d a y.
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
and y o u
-- T h a t
(20
is so
yes.
A n d we n o w k n o w t h a t
fo r s o m e d a y s
a c t u a l l y w e n t to w o r k at B o i p a t o n g ?
been reg arded
And yet,
as d a y s t h a t
are you
w e n t to B o i p a t o n g ,
stationed
-- Yes,
absent
-- Y e s,
w e n t to w o r k ,
I should
but those days
have
from work.
saying that you were
you still
at E v a t o n ?
A n d do
I was
b e f o r e the m a s s a c r e you
still,
or w h e n y o u
you were
s t i ll
h a v e g o n e to E v a t o n .
I u n d e r s t a n d y o u to s a y t h a t y o u w e r e m a r k e d
absent
f r o m w o r k on t h e d a y s t h a t y o u w e n t t o B o i p a t o n g b e c a u s e y o u
(30
K24.1160
- 667 -
did n o t r e p o r t f o r d u t y
r e g a r d e d as d a y s
And
I take
those days
XA BA
at E v a t o n ?
-- Ye s ,
those days
have been
of a b s e n t e e i s m .
it t h e n t h a t y o u w e r e
either?
not paid
-- T h e m o n e y t h a t w a s
in r e s p e c t of
d e d u c te d was
about
R 100, 00.
Was t h at for t h os e days
reported
for duty
ferred there?
--
as w e l l ,
for the days that you
at B o i p a t o n g b e f o r e y o u w e r e o f f i c i a l l y t r a n s
(For th e days t ha t you w e re o f f i c i a l l y t r a n s
ferred?)
CH'AIRMAN:
tioned
In o t h e r w o r d s
at E v a t o n ,
those days?
daily?
sorry.
b u t he r e p o r t e d
-- No,
MR H A T T I N G H :
- no,
I wa s
still
st a -
not p a i d f o r t h o s e d a y s .
Monthly,
weekly,
-- M o n t h l y .
-- Yes,
I w as
received your
receiving
salary
this
in r e s p e c t
at t h e e n d of e a c h m o n t h ?
it p r o p e r l y .
And for those days that you were
- inbetween the
14th
not
a b l e to go to w o r k at
a nd t h e 2 1 s t ,
of t h o s e d a y s e i t h e r ?
--
I was
were you
not p a i d
not paid for those
days.
(20
When did you d i s c o v e r that you were mar ke d
d a y s t h a t y o u w e n t to B o i p a t o n g
instead
this w h e n my s a l a r y was
usual
k n o w w h y a nd t h e n
not the
I was tol d t h a t
as a b s e n t on t h e
of E v a t o n ?
salary
I had bee n
and
--
I discovered
I w a n t e d to
absenting myself.
A n d t h a t m u s t t h e n h a v e b e e n at t h e e n d of J u n e ?
think
(10
at B o i p a t o n g , was he p a i d f o r
On w h a t b a s i s w e r e y o u p a i d ?
And you have
all,
W h e n he w a s
-- Yes,
I
it m u s t h a v e b e e n t h e e n d of J u n e .
Ye s.
N o w,
why,
to w o r k e v e r y da y ,
inbetween the
if y o u w e r e
why did you
14th of J u n e
so k e e n on w o r k i n g
n ot r e p o r t f o r d u t y
and t h e 2 1 s t of J u n e ?
and g o i n g
at B o i p a t o n g
--(Why weren't
you..?)
(30
W h y / ----
K 24 .1 2 9 1
- 668 -
Wh y did you,
y o u to E v a t o n ,
a f ew d a y s
when your transport
d i d no t a r r i v e to t a k e
w h y d i d n ' t y o u go to B o i p a t o n g
before?
properly welcomed
Yes,
XABA
--
I have already
as y o u did f o r
s a i d t h a t w e w e r e not
at B o i p a t o n g .
so w h y d i d y o u t h e n
a sk f o r a t r a n s f e r ?
--
(W h y did
y o u ask .. ?)
A s k f o r an o f f i c i a l
t r a nsfer from
you w e r e not p r o p e r l y w e l c o m e
to W a r r a n t O f f i c e r M o t s w e n e ,
t a l k to t h e s t a t i o n
there?
E v a t o n to B o i p a t o n g
--
Well,
if
I u l t i ma t e l y spoke
t e 1e p h o n i c a 1 l y , a nd a s k e d h i m to
commander
in B o i p a t o n g ,
so t h a t a r r a n g e m e n t ^ 10
can be m a d e f o r us to be t r a n s f e r r e d .
Who
is t h e
station
commander
wh o did not w a nt you t h e r e ?
Do y o u k n o w w h e t h e r he
is s t i l l
--
at B o i p a t o n g ,
It w a s S e r g e a n t
is s t i l l
So b e c a u s e y o u w e r e
Erasmus.
stationed there?
not w e l c o m e ther e,
t r a n s p o r t f r o m E v a t o n on t h o s e d a y s
from the
15th of J u n e to t h e 2 0 t h
on w h i c h
I had w a i t e d
And..okay.
-- Y e s,
he
p o r t w a s to c o m e .
Yes,
the people
-- Yes,
t h o s e are t h e
I w e n t to B o i p a t o n g to
on a r r i v a l
said t h at
it w a s
at B o i p a t o n g
I would wait there,
at B o i p a t o n g p o l i c e
at m y p o l i c e
of J u n e ?
I w o u l d be t o l d
It h as b e e n
-- Yes,
for
f o r my t r a n s p o r t .
and d i d y o u t h e n w a i t
the t r a n s p o r t ?
you waited
f o r w h i c h we h a v e no e n t r i e s
-- B u t s o m e t i m e s w h e n
report for duty there,
station
(20
that our t r a n s
coming.
police
station
for
havi ng been told that
have called
the people
station.
On ho w m a n y o c c a s i o n s
did y o u
is t h e p e r s o n
stationed there.
Y es .
days
who
did that happen,
on h o w m a n y d ay s
go to B o i p a t o n g and w e r e y o u t o l d t h a t y o u r t r a n s p o r t
w o u l d be c o m i n g ?
--
The q u e s ti on
b ut w e h ad g o t u s e d to g o i n g t h e r e
of p h o n i n g
a nd
happened twice
s i t t i n g on t h e p r e m i s e s
o f / ----
(30
K 2 4 .1430
of t h i s
- 669 police
station,
w ai t i n g for our trans po rt .
On e v e r y o n e of t h o s e d a y s ?
go t h e r e
and j u s t w a i t t h e r e .
"i
with
us t h a t y o u
people
And went
and
sometimes
be a b l e to go
n o t be.
17th.
-- Y es ,
that
ra,n a w a y and t h a t y o u w e n t
in S e b o k e n g ?
lived
on e v e r y d a y we w o u l d
we w o u l d
T h e m a s s a c r e o c c u r r e d on t h e
D id y o u t el l
stayed
-- Yes,
We w o u l d
and r e p o r t f o r d u t y bu t s o m e t i m e s
Y e s.
XABA
--
is so.
and
I fled after the massacre.
in S e b o k e n g ?
-- Yes,
I w e n t and
stayed
in S e b o k e n g .
For how
I stayed
lo n g d i d y o u s t a y t h e r e ,
in S e b o k e n g
after the massacre?
--
(10
f o r a n u m b e r of d a y s .
C a n ' t y o u g i v e us an e s t i m a t e ?
--
I think
it w a s
about a
w e e k o r so.
Yes,
and how far
is S e b o k e n g f r o m E v a t o n ?
very far f r om Evaton,
And how far
is
B o i p a t o n g or h o w f o r
is S e b o k e n g
CHAIRMAN:
Sebokeng.
MR H A T T I N G H :
to e s t i m a t e
If y o u
can,
know k il o m e t re s
but
-- W e l l ,
me w h i c h
Eva to n or S e b o k e n g ?
--
is E v a t o n f r o m
--
I do not k n o w how
kilometres?
because
it is t h e
same dis tan ce
as
to B o i p a t o n g .
is f u r t h e s t
Evaton
away from Boipatong,
is f u r t h e s t
-- F r o m S e b o k e n g t o B o i p a t o n g
or s i m i l a r d i s t a n c e
(20
I do not
away from Boipatong.
Is E v a t o n n o t c l o s e r to S e b o k e n g t h a n B o i p a t o n g
to S e b o k e n g ?
Yes.
yes.
I do not ‘
know,
I would estimate
I would walk from Vereeniging
Y e s.
(H o w f a r
do you- w a n t me to s a y h o w m a n y
yes.
Can y o u tell
--
from Boipatong?)
Sebokeng from Boipatong,
that,
is
I do no t k n o w h o w far.
it f r o m B o i p a t o n g ?
Sebokeng,
-- S e b o k e n g
is
is t h e s a m e d i s t a n c e
as f r o m S e b o k e n g to E v a t o n .
I am n o t t e r r i b l y
t el l m e w h e t h e r S e b o k e n g
familiar with
is s i t u a t e d
the area.
m o r e or
less
Can you
inbetween
B o i p a t o n g / ----
(30
K24.1588
- 670 -
Boipatong
N o w,
a nd E v a t o n ?
are y o u t h e n
approximately
that
s a y i n g to us t h a t d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d of
police
staying
from Sebok e n g than
Evaton?
10,
-- Y e s .
d i r e c t i o n to w a i t f o r t r a n s p o r t ?
c u l t y we h a d w a s
-- T h e
not with the di s t a n c e
in t h e o p p o s i t e
I did.
station
11 k i l o m e t r e s
you
an d s i t a nd w a i t
is m o r e or less
So y o u w a n t to g e t to E v a t o n p o l i c e
do so y o u h a d to go a b o u t
in S e b o k e n g ,
s t a t i o n to c o m e
for yo u r t r a n s p o r t which
direction
is so.
one week that you were
c a m e to t h e B o i p a t o n g
there
-- Yes,
XA B A
and
in o r d e r to
in t h e o p p o s i t e
actual
a-s su c h ,
distance
but
- diffi
it w a s
(10
with our safety.
Now,
correct
youfled
from your home after the mass ac re ,
and y o u w e n t a nd
lived
is t h a t
in S e b o k e n g b e c a u s e y o u w e r e
a f r a i d t h a t y o u m i g h t be a t t a c k e d
in B o i p a t o n g ?
-- Yes,
that
is
so.
Do I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t h e n to s ay t h a t d e s p i t e y o u r f e ar ,
you n e v ertheless
patong police
Evaton?
came
into B o i p a t o n g e v e r y m o r n i n g
s t a t i o n to w a i t f o r t r a n s p o r t
-- Y e s ,
that
to t h e B o i
f r o m B o i p a t o n g to
is so.
W h y d i d y o u do t h a t ?
-- W e l l ,
a c c o r d i n g to me,
the people(20
w h o w e r e t r o u b l e s o m e to us w e r e n ' t p e o p l e o r r e s i d e n t s
of B o i
patong .
So w h y d i d y o u f l e e
that these people
from Boipatong?
--
I fled
at t h e t i m e
had come.
Who were the people then that were t r o u b l e s o m e
you put
though
it? -- T h e s e w e r e
I don't
people who would
know who the owners
I had h e a r d w a s t h a t t h e s e w e r e
come
to you,
in C o m b i ' s ,
of t h e C o m b i ' s w e r e ,
comrades,
as
from places
but what
s uc h
as
Sharpeville.
And
such
as S e b o k e n g ?
-- Yes,
that
is so.
A n d / ____
(30
K24.1760
- 671 -
And now you were
to g e t a w a y f r o m ?
place that
running
-- No,
I had f l e d
XABA
to t h e p e o p l e w h o y o u w e r e t r y i n g
I d i d n ot go to t h o s e p e o p l e .
to
is a q u i e t p l a c e ,
first place that one would
a nd t h a t
You see, the
is t he
g e t to w h e n e n t e r i n g S e b o k e n g a f t e r
having gone past the hostel.
But yo u were very m uc h
very much
troubled
a f r a i d of t h e h o s t e l ?
a f r a i d of t h e h o s t e l ,
but the police were
W e h a v e g o n e to t h e
ethnic
groups were
t h e r e to b r i n g
hostel,
in f i g h t s
a Wednesday,
W h y not,
referring
I'm s o r r y ,
t i m e on t h a t
CHAIRMAN:
at S e b o k e n g ?
reports
that
(10
We w o u l d t h e n go
on t h e d a y of t h e m a s s a c r e ,
-- No,
station,
it
at
I d i d n o t go on t h a t day.
-- No,
what
I don't
understand
is w h a t
to?
I . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ). -- A f t e r t h e
incident
or w h a t
day?
16th/17th.
occurred
L e t us t a l k a b o u t t h e
It w a s t h e
MR H A T T I N G H :
received
in t h e h o s t e l .
Let. us t a l k a b o u t t h e m a s s a c r e
CHAIRMAN:
in t h e h o s t e l
d i d y o u a l s o w a i t at t h e p o l i c e
on t h a t d a y ?
time you were
having
in q u e s t i o n ,
Boipatong for t r a n s p o r t ?
the
not b e i n g
an e n d t o s u c h f i g h t s .
On t h e e v e n i n g
was
I was
from the hostel.
W h y w e r e y o u a f r a i d of t h e p e o p l e
--
-- Y es ,
The
It w a s
17th
and
on t h e n i g h t of
(20
16th.
18th.
1 7 t h / 1 8 t h , I'm s o r r y .
on t h e W e d n e s d a y e v e n i n g ,
so y o u w a n t to k n o w
about W e d n e s d a y mor ning?
MR H A T T I N G H :
the
17th,
Yes.
I w a n t to k n o w
d i d y o u w a i t at t h e p o l i c e
about Wednesday morning,
station
on t h e
1 7 t h ? --
I
d i d go and w a i t f o r m y t r a n s p o r t .
B u t n o t on t h e
18th?
--
I d i d n o t go on t h e l 8 t h .
(30
\
O n / ... .
K24.1884
- 672 -
On t h e
arrive?
--
17th,
you
-- Ye s ,
night you were
sa i d ,
that
that
di d not
I did.
at h o m e an d y o u w e n t to bed f a i r l y
is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
About
- just after 20:00?
is so.
Your Zozo
Yes,
w h a t d i d y o u do w h e n y o u r t r a n s p o r t
I don't remember what
And that
early,
XABA
is b e h i n d y o u r p a r e n t s '
home,
is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
--
is so.
Do y o u a l s o h a v e a b r o t h e r w h o
Where does
he
live?
s t r e e t w h e r e my p a r e n t s '
Can we have the
-- H e
home
is a p o l i c e m a n ?
stays
-- Yes.
in t h e n e x t s t r e e t f r o m t h e
is s i t u a t e d .
n a m e of t h a t
(10
street please?
-- B a r o l o n g
Street.
Can you
give
us his n u m b e r ,
h a v e to t h i n k - P A U S E Is
is s i t u a t e d on t h e m a p
MR P R E T O R I U S :
CHAIRMAN:
C a n he m a r k
That
MR C H A S K A L S O N :
different
this
is c o r r e c t ,
s e r i e s of
Well
letters
--
I will
an X2 M r C h a i r m a n ?
house?
Mr Chairman.
if w e s h o u l d
in c a s e a n y t h i n g t u r n s
except there
ar e no o t h e r m a r k i n g s
No,
CHAIRMAN:
- is y o u r b r o t h e r a l s o a s p e c i a l
b u t he
MR H A T T I N G H :
CHAIRMAN:
on w h a t was
on t h i s
one
I understand
is a c o n s t a b l e
At w h i c h
(20
to us e t h i s .
MR C H A S K A L S O N :
No,
not h a v e a
record.
is t h e f i r s t w i t n e s s
Wa s
i n d i c a t e where
in E X H I B I T 4.
I was j u s t w o n d e r i n g
and X2 on t h e
CHAIRMAN:
house?
it w i t h
Is XI t h e w i t n e s s ' s
MR P R E T O R I U S :
-- I will
634.
it f a r f r o m y o u r p a r e n t s '
the house
XI
in B a r o l o n g S t r e e t ?
- a nd w h e r e
I'm s o r r y ,
constable?
--
in t h e S AP .
is he s t a t i o n e d ?
Mr Chai rm an,
He said his b r o t h e r
--
In V a n d e r b i j l p a r k .
I miss e d that?
is a c o n s t a b l e
at - s t a t i o n e d ( 3 0
K24.2075
- 673 -
XABA
at V a n d e r b i j l p a r k .
MR H A T T I N G H :
Thank you.
the m a s s a c r e ?
And
-- Y e s ,
he w a s
massacre,
W as he s t a t i o n e d t h e r e at t h e d a t e of
that
is so.
living there,
is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
Does
he s t i l l
at th e h o u s e on t h e d a y of t h e
-- Ye s ,
l iv e t h e r e ?
that
-- No,
is so.
h is h o u s e go t b u r n t d o w n
a f t e r he f l e d .
W h o do y o u t h i n k b u r n t his h o u s e d o w n ?
--
I think
it is
young men from S h a rpeville.
Why would
p e o p l e f r om o u t s i d e B o i p a t o n g c ome and a t t ac k
(10
i
police
inside Boipa tong?
has p o l i c e m e n
h a v e c o m e to
living
H o w do y o u
s ay
in t h e t o w n s h i p .
I don't
in t h e
-- B o i p a t o n g ,
so m u c h
Can you tell
every came
a l s o a f r a i d of b e i n g
-- Y e s ,
I wa s
about them but
it is
-- T h a t
is-what
I heard
a t t a c k e d by p e o p l e f r o m
a f r a i d of t h a t .
living
in B o i p a t o n g ?
I have heard that
--(20
s o m e of
in t h e i r h o u s e s .
us w h e t h e r p r i o r to t h e m a s s a c r e ,
into B o i p a t o n g
at n i g h t
the police
in o r d i n a r y v e h i c l e s ,
as
to a r m o u r e d v e h i c l e s ?
CHAIRMAN:
Ordinary police vehicles?
MR H A T T I N G H :
people
because
yes.
so w e r e y o u r o t h e r c o l l e a g u e s
t h e m w e r e p u t t i n g up
opposed
attack the police,
streets.
so w e r e yo u
know
st ill
Now the de ci s i o n they
know about that decision?
S e b o k e n g or S h a r p e v i l l e ?
And
it is B o i p a t o n g t h a t
killed the people.
In B o i p a t o n g ?
Yes,
Well,
is t h a t t h e y w i l l
the pol ic e that
people
--
came
CHAIRMAN;
Ordinary
police vehicles,
yes Mr Ch ai rm an .
--(The
in..?)
No,
police vehicles
wh e t h e r the poli ce
came
as o p p o s e d to a r m o u r e d
in t o B o i p a t o n g
police
in o r d i n a r y
vehicles.
--
(30
K24.2217
- 674 -
XA B A
(Pol i c e ) .
MR H A T T I N G H :
W h e t h e r . . ( i i n t e r v e n e s ). -- No,
they were coming
in
H i p po 's .
W as t h e r e a r e a s o n
What was the
travelled
people
for that?
reason?
in H i p p o ' s
--
People
a reason,
T h e r e a s o n w h y we,
is t h a t
s h o o t at t h e p o l i c e
-- T h e r e w a s
y es .
the police,
it h a d b e e n g e n e r a l l y t a k e n t h a t
in t h e t o w n s h i p s .
from the towns hips?
-- P e o p l e w o u l d
s h o o t f r o m the
townships.
Ye s;
but the
residents
police when they come
be d o n e by r e s i d e n t s
in B o i p a t o n g .
As
of B o i p a t o n g .
are w h o w i l l
where they come from,
--
nor would
staying
in B o i p a t o n g .
are saying:
Y o u do not
say w h o t h e s e
I also would
-- No,
people
police?
no t be a b l e to say
I know where the weapons
they
(20
Have you ever witnessed
-- W e l l ,
S h a r p e v i l l e was
No,
but
I would
attacked
on p o l i c e
Can you
s ay so.
a nd w e w e r e
t el l
attacks
such
The
I am t a l k i n g - s o r r y ,
I am t a l k i n g a b o u t
attacks
I
are.
u se c o m e f r o m .
MR H A T T I N G H :
not
no p o l i c e m a n w as
s h o o t at p o l i c e m e n ?
no t be a b l e to s p e c i f i c a l l y
(10
this would
We h a v e a l s o b e e n
I un de r s t a n d what you
Or w h e r e they came from?
s h o o t at t h e
a c c o r d i n g to me,
a c c o r d i n g to my k n o w l e d g e ,
k n o w w h o th e p e o p l e
would
-- No,
No p o l i c e m a n w a s e v e r k i l l e d ,
e ve r shot dead,
CHAIRMAN:
in?
of B o i p a t o n g w o u l d
an a t t a c k on t h e
police
station
sent there.
were you finished,
on p o l i c e
in
in B o i p a t o n g .
--
Mr Chairman?
I h a v e seen
in B o i p a t o n g .
us a b o u t t h a t ?
-- T h i s w a s
after the Boi pa ton g
massacre.
Not before?
-- N o t b e f o r e .
Then
come
I will
b a c k to
it l a t e r .
Do y o u k n o w
b y / ----
a person(30
K 2 4 .2398
- 675 -
by t h e n a m e of - y o u m e n t i o n e d
earlier
in y o u r e v i d e n c e ,
And t h at
a person
didn't you?
is t h e p e r s o n w h o
t h e n m o v e d to K w a M a d a l a ?
Do y o u
k n o w his
him?
by t h e n a m e of G e o r g e
-- Y e s ,
u s e d to
-- Yes,
surname?
Y o u g r e w up w i t h
XABA
that
-- No,
-- Yes,
live
is so.
in B o i p a t o n g
is so.
and
V*
/
I do not k n o w .
that
H a v e y o u e v e r as a p o l i c e m a n ,
that
is so.
taken
action
again st him?
Y e s.
--
>,
Tell
us a b o u t
some y oun g
came
r u n n i n g and r e p o r t e d that
m a n w a n t e d to t a k e h e r f o r c i b l y .
who that was
George
it? -- A g i r l
an d s he t o l d me t h a t
I asked this
it w a s G e o r g e .
and t o l d h i m t h a t w h a t he ha d d o n e w i l l
in p r i s o n .
Where
Was
He had b e t t e r
- wa s t h i s
he s t i l l
stop
in B o i p a t o n g .
--
in B o i p a t o n g
a l r e a d y m o v e d to K w a M a d a l a ?
I w e n t to
c a u s e h i m to
land
it.
in B o i p a t o n g ?
living
g i r l (10
-- He w a s
H e u s e d to be w i t h
It w a s
in B o i p a t o n g .
at t h e t i m e o r h ad he
still
a group
living
in t h e t o w n s h i p
of p e o p l e t h a t w e n t
about doing wrong.
And when you
occasion?
-- Ye s ,
s p o k e to him,
he did,
d i d he
although
D o y o u k n o w any o t h e r p e r s o n
whom you have taken
action
l i s t e n to y o u on t h a t
he w a s
by t h e
stubborn.
n a m e of G e o r g e
as a p o l i c e m a n ?
--
I have taken
an A K - 4 7
from this
against
-- No.
Y o u h a v e n e v e r t a k e n an A K - 4 7 f r o m a p e r s o n by t h e
George?
(20
n a m e of
v e r y G e o r g e t h a t we
have been disc us si ng.
Y es ,
about?
n o w w a s t h a t on t h e o c c a s i o n
-- No,
Now that
f r o m h i m,
it w a s
is m e n t i o n e d
afterwards.
is a v e r y
w h y di d y o u
t h a t y o u j u s t t o l d us
serious
not tell
thing,
you took
us a b o u t t h a t ?
--
an A K - 4 7
away
I t h i n k th is
in my s t a t e m e n t .
(30
W h i c h / ____
K24.2579
- 676 -
Which
this.
You
statement?
I co nf ir m that.
asked
I did menti on
MR H A T T I N G H :
I con f i r m that,
a lot a b o u t o c c u r r e n c e s
did m a k e m e n t i o n of this
Mr Hattingh,
relevance
of t h i s G e o r g e
MR H A T T I N G H :
CHAIRMAN:
Yes,
Mr Chairman.
in t h e t o w n s h i p
and
I
as w e l l .
Now w h en did you take the A K - 4 7
CHAIRMAN:
may
away from George?
I just enquire,
is t h e r e d i r e c t
incident?
Mr Chairman.
I would
submit there
is.
(10
V e r y wel 1 .
MR H A T T I N G H :
was
interview
I n t e r v i e w w i t h who-? -- W i t h M r P r e t o r i u s .
MR P R E T O R I U S :
I was
-- D u r i n g t h e
see..(intervenes).
CHAIRMAN:
--
XABA
When did you take this A K - 4 7
a w a y f r o m h i m ? -- It
in J a n u a r y .
Of t h i s y e a r ?
And was
-- Of t h i s y e a r ,
he t h e n
already
living
yes.
in K w a M a d a l a ?
-- Ye s ,
that
is s o .
Where did you find him with the AK?
of p e o p l e t h a t h a d c o m e
i nt o t h e t o w n s h i p ,
tavern where they assaulted
g a v e c h a s e at t h e m .
rank for the t a x i ' s
people.
I followed.
s o m e of t h e s e p e o p l e t h a t
The people then
o n l y o n e of t h e m r e m a i n e d
I suggested
t hat we s ho ul d
Yes,
well,
(20
When they produced these AK-47's
houses.
m a n w h o had r e m a i n e d
in t h e t o w n s h i p
W h e n t h e y g o t to a t a x i -
shooting.
of m i n e and
t h e y had g o n e to a
The you th s
they started
a way,
a group
bound for Sebokeng they produced AK-47's
o n e of t h e m had a p u m p - g u n .
Now
-- H e w as w i t h
r a t h e r n o t do
into
shooting,
I was with
ran
a friend
friend that we ap proach this
alone,
it,
we do n ot w a n t
t h e y ran
had been
behind.
to t h i s
behind
fled,
a n d my f r i e n d t h e n
suggested
unarmed.
all
the de tails,
I asked you where
d i d y o u t a k e t h e gun a w a y f r o m -him? -- This person ran into a house. I
w e n t / ....
K 2 4 .2764
- 677 -
w e n t to t h e h o u s e ,
person.
I w e n t to t h i s
He the n t h r e w this
CHAIRMAN:
stories.
Mr Xaba,
Just
just
where,
-- I g o t t h i s
--
You c o n f i rm ed
q u e s t i o n was:
gun.
is:
Where
gun
You give
and a n s w e r
No,
d i d y o u t a k e t h a t gun,
u n d e r t h e b e d.
that you took
There was
he
about,
it is n ot G e o r g e .
an AK f r o m G e o r g e .
W he re did you take
had a gun,
long
it.
And the person that you have been ta lk in g
was that Ge or ge ?
George
r u n n i n g a f te r this
g un u n d e r a b e d.
l i s t e n to t h e q u e s t i o n ,
The q u e s ti on
MR H A T T I N G H :
house
answer the que st io n.
MR S I T H O L E :
where?
XABA
My next
it a w a y f r o m G e o r g e ?
is o n e of t h e p e o p l e w h o
s o m e b o d y e ls e w h o s e gun
--
(10
ran a w a y w i t h
is t h e g u n t h a t
his
I got
f r o m u n d e r t h e bed.
CHAIRMAN:
No, M r X a b a ,
please
l i s t e n to me now.
d i d y o u t a k e a gun f r o m G e o r g e ?
MR H A T T I N G H :
Well,
specifically
CHAIRMAN:
-- W e l l ,
then
said
so.
Well,
you
I was
I do not u n d e r s t a n d
that correct
about
o r not,
that
did you say t h at ?
You even
a gun and
an A K - 4 7
from George.
(20
an A K - 4 7 f r o m G e o r g e ,
--
It w a s
is
not f rom George.
s a i d to us t h a t y o u t o l d M r P r e t o r i u s
it? --
I said yes,
I was
asked
if I h ad e v e r r e
I have made mention thereof
in
statement.
On t h e e v e n i n g
w o k e y o u up?
Yes.
--
us t h a t y o u t o o k
it an d he c o n f i r m e d
covered
y o u b e c a u s e yo u
_
you told
MR H A T T I N G H :
-
s a y i n g t h a t G e o r g e had been d e m a n d i n g
f o r a g un f r o m me.
Mr Xaba,
asked
-- No.
said that you took
actually
You
I was
--
in q u e s t i o n ,
the ev ening
(Is t h i s t h e e v e n i n g
You w en t to bed j u s t
of t h e a t t a c k ,
what
of t h e m a s s a c r e ? )
after 20:00
I think you
sa id.
a w o k e n by n o i s e .
(30
C H A I R M A N / . - . ..
K24.2984
- 678 -
-CHAIRMAN:
What was the
noise?
XABA
-- W h i c h w a s
gunshots.
Sorry.
MR H A T T I N 6 H :
woke
And what were your
up, w h a t w e r e y o u r
what was
g o i n g o n?
i m m e d i a t e t h o u g h t s w h e n yo u
immediate thoughts,
-- I a s k e d m y s e l f
w h a t did you think
if t h e p o l i c e w e r e
perhaps
•
dispersing
riots
people that were causing commotions
in t h e
night but then
for the p o l i c e
and n o i s e s ,
I s a i d to m y s e l f t h e u s u a l
is n o t t h a t of u s i n g a u t o m a t i c
or
practice
guns w he n d i s
persing people.
Right,
automatic
and t h e
guns?
--
shots
Most
that you heard,
of t h e
shots,
were they shots
yes,
from
(10
were from automatic
guns.
Can you d i s t i n g u i s h
f i r e d and t h e
— No,
I would
Yes.
sound made
be twe en the
s o u n d m a d e by an AK b e i n g
by an R5 o r R4 f o r
instance being fired?
not.
So w h e n y o u - w h e n t h e t h o u g h t o c c u r r e d to y o u t h a t
t h e p o l i c e do not n o r m a l l y
use a u t o m a t i c
g u n s to d i s p e r s e
w hat did yo u then t h i n k w h a t did yo u t h i n k w h a t was
I then
s a i d to m y s e l f :
Yes.
--
Were you
This
could
people
happening?
not be t h e p o l i c e s h o o t i n g .
I t h e n w e n t o u t of t h e h o u s e .
n ot a f r a i d ?
--
I w as
(20
not afraid.
The pr ev iou s time when you heard
automatic
w e r e t o o a f r a i d to go o u t of t h e h o u s e ,
you
gunfire,
remained
you
inside.
--
Before the m a s s a c r e ?
Y es .
--
Yes,
I was
afraid.
W h y a f r a i d on t h e f i r s t o c c a s i o n
-- I had d e c i d e d
killed even
r a t h e r to go o u t b e c a u s e
inside houses.
am k i l l e d o r not,
a n d n o t on t h i s
but
Now
I decided
people
occasion?
sometimes
get
to go ou t , w h e t h e r
I
I w a s g o i n g ou t .
Did you t h in k t h a t you m i g h t
as w e l l
be k i l l e d o u t s i d e ?
-- W e l l / ____
(30
K24.3203
- 67 9 -
XABA
-- W e l l ,
w h a t c a m e to m y t h o u g h t
is t h a t b e c a u s e
t h e s o u n d of a H i p p o ,
W h e n di d y o u
--
While
Hippo,
Y es .
after
at t h a t
also heard the
7*
stage?
s o u n d of t h e
I h ad g o n e out.
but you heard the gun sh ot s
I had h e a r d
I m i g h t get some help.
h e a r t h e s o u n d of t h e H i p p o ,
I heard the g u n s h ot s,. I
it w a s
Yes,
let me go out,
I had h e a r d
b e f o r e you w e n t out?
--
it, y e s .
At that
s t a g e y o u h a d p.ot h e a r d t h e H i p p o y e t ?
had n o t h e a r d t h e H i p p o ,
-- I
yes.
So y o u c o u l d n o t h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t t h e H i p p o w o u l d be t h e r i 10
to p r o t e c t y o u ?
Thought
t h a t ? --
--
I thought
it w o u l d . . ?
What
it w o u l d
Would
be t h e r e ?
I knew was that there were
around the t o w n s hi p
in t h e n i g h t .
the t o w n s h i p
I w e n t to bed.
before
Where did you
to b e d ?
--
see p o l i c e m e n
I came
back home before
across
does this
w h er e my parent s'
Y es .
then move
Well,
policemen
T h e r e had been p o l i c e m e n
in
in t h e t o w n s h i p b e f o r e y o u w e n t
I w a s on my w a y
-- No,
--
I wa s f r o m a r e l a t i v e of m i n e .
live?
--
In t h e
same
street
as
(20
is s i t u a t e d .
y o u t h e n d e c i d e d to go o u t s i d e
in t h e d i r e c t i o n
what
normally
a passing Hippo when
relative
home
Alright,
coming from?
What made you think
I w e n t to b e d. '
Back home from wh er e ?
Where
be t h e r e .
that
from where you heard the
is n o t
a nd di d y o u
shots
so.
d i d y o u do w h e n y o u g o t o u t s i d e ?
-- ( M e c h a n i c a l
defect).
(30
W h e n / ____
25
- 680 -
XABA
When you got to the gate did y o u then observe the
Casspir? — Yes, I saw it.
Can you tell us h o w far it was away from y o u at that
stage? — It was alr e a d y m o v i n g in our street w h e n I got
to the gate.
Yes, in M a j o l a Street but was it a l r e a d y in front of
your house or was it still a p p r o a c h i n g your house? — I
think it could have been about four or five houses away.
CHAIRMAN:
Was it still coming towards your house? — It
was still co m i n g towards our house.
MR HATTINGH;
(10)
A m I correct in saying it was co m i n g from the
d i r ec t i o n of L e k o a Street? — It was coming from the d i r e c
tion of Lekoa Street and m o v i n g in the d i r e c t i o n of Slovo
Park.
It was there f o r e co m i n g from your left? — Yes, it was.
N o w you told us in answer to q u e s tions put to you by
Mr Chaskalson, that p h o t o graphs were taken w i t h you s t a n d
ing in the p o s i t i o n wh e r e the Cas s p i r was w h e n you first
saw it, is that correct? — I was asked to get a policem a n
to stand there.
Sorry, I think you are correct.
(20)
You showed a p o l i c e
m a n where he had to go and stand and that p o s i t i o n was where
the Cas s p i r was w h e n you first saw it? — Yes.
A nd correct me if I am m i s t a k e n but I u n d e r s t o o d your
further evidence in this regard to be that subs e q u e n t l y you
were shown a p h o t o g r a p h and you did not agree that that p o
liceman was standing in the p o s i t i o n w h i c h y o u indicated at
the time that the p h o t o g r a p h was taken in your presence. —
That is so yes.
Are you saying then that they m u s t have taken a n o t h e r (30)
p h o t o g r a p h / ..
25.0132
- 681 -
XABA
p h o t o g r a p h in your ab sence w i t h the p o l i c e m a n standing f u r
ther away from your house than the p o s i t i o n that you i n d i
cated? — No, I do not think they took other photographs
but in my m i n d w h a t I k n o w is that a camera has what is
c a l led a lens, so I t hink they m u s t have caused this lens
to m ake the person appear further than the place I had i n
dicated.
But from all that I gather that y o u are pretty sure
where the C a s s p i r was w h e n you first saw it? — You are
p r etty sure?
(.10)
You seem to be pr e t t y cer t a i n where it was because you
a r e able to say on the p h o t o g r a p h it appears to be further
than the p o s i t i o n that you i n d i c a t e d at the time when the
p h o t o g r a p h was taken. — You see but a c c o r d i n g to me they
should not have asked me the q u e s t i o n wh e r e this Hippo was
w h e n I saw it bec a u s e it was not stationary,
it was in m o
tion.
Yes, but one can m o r e or less indicate w h a t a position
was w h e n you saw it for the first time. — Yes, e s t i mati n g
I c ould do that and it was about the sixth house.
(20)
The sixth house? — Yes.
*
A n d did you w h e n the p h o t o g r a p h was taken, did you
take up the p o s i t i o n more or less at the sixth house from
your house, or the p o l i c e m a n sorry, did the p o l i c e m a n take
up the posi t i o n more or less oppo s i t e the sixth house from
your house? — W h e n I p o i n t e d out a house where I had last
seen it w h e n I left the gate, you see I was just doing this
to get rid of these people bec a u s e they were speaking to me
in an u n m a n n e r l y way.
Sorry, can I just get this clear.
Are you denying
now /..
(30)
25.06
- 682 -
XABA
n o w that you showed a p o l i ceman where to stand and that that
p o s ition was supposed to be where the Cas s p i r was w h e n you
saw it for the first time? — I do agree that I did indicate
to a p o l i c e m a n where to stand, this is w h e r e I had last seen
the Hippo.
Yes, last seen the Hippo. — Yes.
So did you not indicate a p o s i t i o n w h e r e you saw it
fcr the first time? — I did not indicate that because I
had
to do w i t h people who were not speak i n g to me in a m a n
nerly. way, they were just speaking rou g h l y to me.
(10)
W h y did they ask you to indicate the p o s i t i o n where
you had last seen the Casspir? — Why did they..?
Why did they ask you for that posit i o n ? — I think they
just w a n t e d to d e t e r m i n e as to w h e t h e r I had seen it p r o
p erly and/or w h e t h e r it had- b e e n far or not.
A n d are you saying tha't the p o s i t i o n of the Casspir
that y o u saw on the p h o t o g r a p h w h i c h a p p e a r e d to be further
away than the distance, the posi t i o n that you indicated,
that that was a p h o t o g r a p h of the Cass p i r w h e r e you had last
seen it? — Yes, that is so.
(20)
But he also asked you on the o c c a s i o n w h e n you were
shown the photograph, h o w could you see the people behind
the Cass p i r w i t h the Cas s p i r co m i n g towards you and the
lights shining onto you? — Yes, I was a s k e d that.
A n d were you not asked to indicate the posit i o n of the
Ca s spir w h e n you first saw it? — I was not.
Are you sure? — Yes, I am sure.
A n d let us just deal w i t h this o c c a s i o n w h e n you were
asked to point out c e r t a i n points.
W h a t else were you asked
to point out on that occasion? — I was asked to stand at (30)
25.09
- 683 -
the* door of the shack.
XABA
I was m a d e to do m a n y things.
Yes, let us deal w i t h it.
Were you asked to stand at
the door of the shack in w h i c h you lived?
— Yes.
And was a picture taken of you w h i l s t you were s t a n d
ing there? — Yes, I was.
Were you asked to point out any other things to them?
— I was asked to stand next to the shack, they took p h o t o
graphs from the g a t e .
W i t h y o u stan d i n g right next to the shack? — I was
standing next to it, a little dist a n c e from it.
(10)
Why were you asked to stand there? — I w o u l d not know.
Did you tell t h e m a n y t h i n g about the posi t i o n where
you were asked to go and stand? — I had not told t h e m a n y
thing.
Is your shack visible from the gate? — No, it is not.
Were they perhaps trying to show the d i s t a n c e .from the
gate to your shack? — I did not ask t h e m w h a t was actually
taking place because I could not even p r o p e r l y talk to them.
What other ph o t o g r a p h s were taken there? — I was asked
to stand at the gate.
(20)
And did they take a p h o t o g r a p h of you standing at the
gate? — Yes, that is so.
Was that the p o s i t i o n where y o u stood w h e n you saw the
C a s spir coming? — Yes, that is so.
And any other pho t o g r a p h s ? — No, none other.
W h e n you were standing at the gate and when you saw the
C a sspir coming along, did you at that stage already observe
the two people in the c a m o u f l a g e unif o r m s be h i n d it? — Yes,
that is so.
Where were they w a l k i n g in r e l a t i o n to the Casspir?
T h e y / ..
(30)
25.11
- 684 -
XABA
— They were m o v i n g be h i n d it, not close to it and they
were actually trotting.
W o u l d you say they were more or less in line w i t h the
C a sspir - b e h i n d it? — They were about in line w i t h it,
behind.
^
And the C a s s p i r itself, w h e r e in rela t i o n to the road
was it travelling, in the mi d d l e of the road, right, lefthand side? — It was in the middle of that street.
>«
The street in w h i c h you lived, is it a tar r e d road? —
It is a gravel road.
Yes.
(10)
Can you give us an indica t i o n here in this room
if possible how far the two men in u n i f o r m a p p e a r e d to be
b e h i n d the Casspir? — They were at the d i s t a n c e as from
about where I am sitting to where Mr Preto r i u s is sitting.
CHAIRMAN:
10 to 12 metres?
No, a bit more, about 12 to
15 metres?
MR HATTINGH:
We can pace it off or m e a s u r e it, Mr C h a i r
man, I w o u l d say 10 to 12 is more accurate.
CHAIRMAN;
M a y I just ask, could you see the colour of the
two men in camouflage, were they w h i t e or black? — Yes, 1(20)
could see.
-4
And? — They were white.
An d the two m e n w a l k i n g in front? — Those were black.
MR HATTINGH;
The two m e n b e h i n d the Casspir, you said they
were running or trotting? — Yes, they were.
And they were
(simultaneously)
— And t h e y . .
Sorry? — ..were tr y i n g to keep pace w i t h the Hippo.
And you also said they had guns? — Yes, that is so.
Did you observe that fact w h e n y o u n o t i c e d them the
first time? — Yes, that is so.
(30)
Could /..
25.14
- 685 -
XABA
Could you see w h a t kind of guns? — Yes, I could.
Yes, w h a t were they? — They were autom a t i c rifles.
Can you say w h a t kind, R l , R5?
AKs? — A c c o r d i n g to
the length that I saw it could have been Rls.
Rls.
Are you saying there f o r e that the guns that they
had were longer than the AK and the R4 or R5? — I w o u l d not
really say that but these were long guns.
W h a t m a d e you think that they were Rls? — Well, a c c o r d
ing to the m a g a z i n e I w o u l d say they could have been Rls or
even R5s.
(10)
I thought you said they a p p e a r e d to be Rls? — Yes, I
am not spe c i f i c a l l y saying they were Rls, it is an e s t i m a
tion.
But they were long ones? — Yes, they were long.
A n d did y o u say somet h i n g about the m a g a z i n e of the
guns that y o u saw? — Magazine?
Of the guns. — Y o u see there are m a n y kinds of guns.
Pump guns are also long guns.
Yes. — But I say they were a u t o m a t i c bec a u s e I saw
the magazine.
Can you describe the m a g a z i n e s that y o u saw?
(20)
Were they
cu rved or straight? — No, I w o u l d not be able to see w h e
ther it is a cu r v e d m a g a z i n e or not in the night.
But you saw the m a g a z i n e s ? — Yes, I did.
A n d that is h o w you k n e w they w e r e automatic rifles?
— Yes, that is how.
Well, if y o u were able to see t h e m w h y can't you d e
scribe them? — I do not just w a n t to talk about something
I d id not p r o p e r l y see.
You k n o w that an R5 is m u c h shorter than an R l , d o n ' t (30)
25.18
- 686 -
XABA
you? — I do k n o w that the R5 is shorter than the Rl but
h a v ing looked at this thing and ha v i n g seen that it is a
long gun, though I did not look at it for a long time, I
could see that it was a long gun, it is not a pistol.
No w why do you say it could have been an R5? — I do
not say it was a c t u a l l y an R5 but a c c o r d i n g to the sound of
the shots w h a t I thought to m y s e l f was that it could be an
R5, Rl and it could also be an AK-47.
I had tho u g h t about
seeing w h e t h e r or not it has a magazine.
Why was that important to y o u at the time? — Well,
(10)
ha v ing seen h o w these people were d r e s s e d I saw the guns
and I saw that they are m a g a z i n e s on those guns.
Yes, but why did y o u p a r t i c u l a r l y take notice of the
m a g azine?
W h y were you in t e r e s t e d in e s t a b l i s h i n g w h a t type
of guns it was that these people were carrying? — Well,
a c c or d i n g to me, people, d r e s s e d in that w a y are not members
of the police.
They are not supposed to be carrying such
guns, that is w h y I looked at these things and I saw this.
We are still tal k i n g about the guns that the people
b e h ind the C a s s p i r had - y o u realise that? — Are we s t i l l (20)
d i s c u s s i n g them?
Yes. — No, I am tal k i n g about the people that were in
front.
THE C O M M I S S I O N ADJO U R N S
THE C O M M I S S I O N RESUMES
N T I E T S A M O S T E R X A B A , s.u.o.
EX A M I N A T I O N BY M R HATTI N G H
(through interpreter)
(CONT.) :
Have y o u taken your
p o c ket book back? — Yes, I did take it back.
May we have it, please?
M r Chairman, m a y this book
be ha n d e d in as - I think E X H I B I T . .
MR PRETORIUS:
25.
(30)
MR CHASKALSON;
/..
25.21
- 687 -
MR CHASKALSON;
XABA
W o u l d it not be poss i b l e to m a k e copies of
the rele v a n t parts and let the w i t n e s s have his book?
MR ROSSOUW:
M R HATTINGH
Mr Hattingh, do you need the poc k e t book now?
No, I do not.
M R ROSSOUW:
Can it be taken ..
M R HATT I N G H
A n d photocopied.
M R ROSSOUW:
Wh a t about
MR HATTINGH
That is quite a lot of p h o t o c o p y i n g to do.
; relev a n t parts?
That was the suggestion.
I w o u l d say sta r t
ing on the first page up to 21 June, Mr Chairman.
It is
(10)
not so m a n y pages and then also if I m a y be permitted, I
ma y have to come back to it and..
MR ROSSOUW;
MR PRETORIUS;
MR HATTINGH;
H o w m a n y copies do we u s u a l l y have, about 10?
10.
Mr Chairman, we tried to m a k e copies of it
this m o r n i n g w h e n we first r e c e i v e d it but u n f o r t u n a t e l y our
p h o t o c o p y mac h i n e broke down but I am sure another one was
available to the committee, to the commission;
I do not know.
W h e n I say ours broke down, the one that we had furnished to
us by the police.
N o w Constable,
just before the lunch
(20)
a d j o u r n m e n t we were t a l k i n g . a b o u t the firearms that the men
had that came running along w i t h the Casspir.
You then
said you u n d e r s t o o d I was r e f e r r i n g to the m e n in front and
not the m e n be h i n d the Casspir. — T h a t is so.
So I w o u l d just like to get c l a r i t y on this aspect.
am going to ask you again.
I
At w h a t stage did you see that
the m e n b e h i n d the C a s s p i r had firearms? — As it was d r a w
ing near, just be f o r e I m o v e d away from where I was st a n d
ing I saw that these people were c a r r y i n g firearms.
W h e n you spoke about the sixth house this morning,
w h a t / ..
(30)
25.24
~ 688 -
XABA
w h a t did you intend to convey by tal k i n g about the 6th
house?
Was that where y o u saw the C a s s p i r for the first
time? — This is w h e n I first saw the Cas s p i r at about the
6th house.
"T
And at that stage could you not see the m e n behind
it? — W h e n I first saw it, I did not see those men.
/
W h y is that? — I w o u l d not have been able to see them,
they m i g h t have been de e p e r b e h i n d the Hippo w h e n I first
saw it.
Are you saying that you did not see t h e m because t h e y (10)
were not visible to you? — Well I can only think that the
r eason mi g h t have been that they m i g h t have been closer
b e hind the Hippo.
It could perhaps be that as they mo v e d
on the gap betw e e n t h e m and the Hippo m i g h t have widened.
That could perhaps have been the reason why I could see
t h em later.
If they were as far beh i n d the C a s s p i r w h e n you first
saw them, w h e n you first saw the Casspir, w o u l d you have
seen them? — Do I think I w o u l d have b e e n able to see them
if they had been further be h i n d it?
(20)
If they were as far be h i n d it - as they were when you
first saw them? — I do not think so.
I do not even know
where this Hippo came from, w h e t h e r it had been coming along
that street all the way or w h e t h e r it had tu r n e d into that
street just before I saw it.
I do not know.
Right, whe n you saw the Hippo for the first time - I
assume y o u m u s t have seen the m e n in front of it i m m e d i a
tely? — W h e n I first saw the Hippo I r e a l i s e d that there
were people in front of it.
Well, h o w did y o u realise, h o w did you come to
r e a l i s e / ..
(30)
25.29
- 689 -
XABA
realise that there were people in front of it? — The p e o
ple I first saw were the people in front of the Hippo.
The
Hippo has lights and these lights were on.
And the lights were shining on these people? — Yes,
they were.
How far were these two people frojn the front of the
Casspir? — The people in front of the Hippo were not as
far away from it as the people be h i n d it.
They were nearer.
A n d the lights of the veh i c l e were be h i n d them as they
a p p r o a c h e d you? — The lights were beh i n d them?
_
(10)
Yes. — Yes.
i
Were they run n i n g n e x t .to each other, close together
or far apart? — T h e y were a dist a n c e apart.
More or less abreast? — Yes.
A n d could you im m e d i a t e l y see that they had firearms?
— Yes, just w h e n I saw t h e m I also real i s e d that they were
c a r rying guns.
These were long guns and visible.
Can you give us some i n d i c a t i o n of the distance beteen them?
How far were they apart? — I w o u l d say about
the w i d t h of the Hippo.
I w a n t to t h i n k the one was in
(20)
front of the one light w h i l e the o t h e r one was in front of
the other light.
A n d you gave the dist a n c e that the m e n behind the
C a s spir were from the C a s s p i r as from wh e r e you were sit
ting up to Mr Pretor i u s ? — Yes, that is so.
Can you give us some e s t i m a t i o n of the distance that
the m e n were in front of the Casspir? — They w e r e nearer.
They could have been as far as from wh e r e I am sitting to
this chair, the o r d e r l y ' s chair.
A b o u t four met r e s from where he is sitting to this
c h a i r / ..
(30)
25.32
- 690 -
XABA
chair.
And did you immediately, y o u said you i m m e d iately n o
ticed that they had firearms.
C o u l d you see what type of
firearms they were carrying? — Yes, I have already e x
p l a ined that what I n o t i c e d was that these were long guns.
So the guns that you were talk i n g about before lunch
were the guns that the m e n in front had? — Yes.
And did each of t h e m have a gun? — That is so.
A n d were the guns that they had similar? — A c c o r d i n g
to my observations, yes.
(10)
W h e r e was the Cass p i r more or less w h e n you noticed
the men b e h i n d it for the first time? — Where were they,
these men?
No, no, where was the Cass p i r w h e n he o b s e r v e d the
m e n be h i n d it for the first time. — It was at about the
third or the fourth house.
Could y o u imm e d i a t e l y see that the m e n be h i n d the C a s s
pir also had guns? — I saw these people beh i n d the Hippo
w h e n it was nearer, about the third or the fourth house.
Yes, but that was not the question.
The q u e s t i o n w a s (20)
w h e n y o u saw t h e m for the first time did y o u immediately
see that they had guns? — Yes, that is so.
And can you desc r i b e those guns for us? — A c c o r d i n g
to w h a t I saw they were similar.
A n d they are now about two to three houses closer to
y ou than they were w h e n you saw the guns in the hands of the
m e n in front for the first time? -- You are n o w confusin g me.
Y ou want me to be saying these people were about the third
h ouse w h e n I first saw them?
I have said the veh i c l e was
at about the third house w h e n I first saw those people
b e h i n d / ..
(30)
25.34
- 691 -
XABA
b ehind it.
All I am saying to you is at that stage they were cl o
ser to you than the two in front were w h e n you saw their
guns for the first time?
The men b e h i n d behind, w h e n you
saw their guns for the first time, were closer to you than
wh e n you saw the guns in the hands of the m e n in front of
the Casspir?
MR SITHOLE:
No, the witn e s s does not understand. — He
does not u n d e r s t a n d at all.
M R ROSS'OUW;
It is a very d i f f i c u l t c o n c e p t to put across (10)
Is it v e r y important?
MR HATTINGH;
other way.
Perhaps I should try and deal w i t h it in a n
C o u l d you cle a r l y see the guns in the hands of
the m e n be h i n d the Cas s p i r w h e n you saw t h e m the first time?
— Yes, I did.
An d can you desc r i b e the m a g a z i n e s of those two guns
for us? — I could not give you a d e s c r i p t i o n of the people
that were nearer to me, a d e s c r i p t i o n of the magazines of
the guns c a r r i e d by the people that were nearer to me, so
I w o u l d not be able to give you a d e s c r i p t i o n of the guns
(20)
that were carr i e d by the people that were further away from
me.
4
Could you not see the guns clearly? — I saw the guns.
I am used to guns, I w o r k w i t h guns ev e r y day.
Yes. — So even if it is dark, if a person is carrying
a gun then I w o u l d be able to see that this is a gun that is
being car r i e d by the person even in the dark.
Yes, that is the very re a s o n w h y I am asking you these
questions.
You k n o w guns, you saw the guns clea r l y - can't
y o u tell us w h a t kind of gun it was?
Was it an AK, was it (30)
25.38
- 692 -
XABA
a R5, a R4, shotgun, w h a t was it? — I did not look at
these guns so c a r e f u l l y as to be able to see w h e t h e r they
had AKs or whatever.
magazine.
I do k n o w that an A K has a curved
Seeing w h a t type of guns these were, AKs, R5s,
or whatever, was not so important to me.
Why not? — W h a t I thought was that the people behind
the people in w h a t seemed to be police unifo r m s were p e r
haps cha s i n g the people that were run n i n g in front of the
H ippo and as I was asking m y s e l f w h e t h e r these people were
ch asing .those in front of the Hippo, a shot w e n t off.
(10)
H a v ing seen that these people were c a r r y i n g guns were suf
ficient to me.
Just on the guns, these four m e n w e r e they carrying
their guns in their hands, slung over their shoulders or
what? — They were each c a r r y i n g these guns in one hand, the
people in front had the barrel’
s of the guns facing up and
the people be h i n d the Hippo had the barrels of their guns
facing d o w n w a r d as they trotted.
N o w you have alre a d y told us that the m e n be h i n d the
C a s spir were sort of trot t i n g behind. — Yes, even the
(20)
Hippo was m o v i n g slowly.
Yes, and the m e n in front were they t h e r e f o r e also
t r o tting in front of the Hippo — They w e r e yes.
The Hippo
also c o n t i n u e d m o v i n g slowly.
Why did you think that the people b e h i n d the Hippo
m i g h t p o s s i b l y be c h a s i n g the m e n in front? — I was just
t h i nking could these mem b e r s of the police perhaps be c h a
sing after these people in front of the Hippo because they
were wearing, the people behind, police uniforms.
Yes, but you k n o w w h a t a m a n runs like w h e n he runs
a w a y / ..
(30)
25.42
- 693 -
XABA
away from the police and w h a t a p o l i c e m a n runs like w h e n he
is chasing after a man run n i n g away? — Yes, I do know.
A nd that was c l e a r l y not the picture that you saw
there? — A n y b o d y who w o u l d have seen h o w fast these p e o
ple were running w h i c h is ordi n a r y trott i n g w o u l d have
r e a lised this.
I also said to myself:
these people are
not actually runn i n g away, they were just trotting.
Yes. — They are not being chased.
At what stage was the first shot fired?
MR ROSSOUW:
W i t h reference to what, Mr Hattir.gh?
With
(10)
w here the Hippo was, w i t h w h a t time it was?
MR HATTINGH:
Perhaps I should put it this way.
H o w close
were the people in front of the H i p p o w h e n the first shot
was fired? — How close?
How close to you. — It could have b e e n about the fourth
house where I last saw the Hippo.
W here? — Where I last saw the Hippo.
And was that the stage w h e n the shot was fired? — Yes.
I am not sure, h o w m a n y shots were fired?
One or more?
— One cannot count the a m m u n i t i o n shot by an automatic
(20)
gun when there is shooting from an automatic gun.
Yes.
So I gather that m a n y shots were fired? — I
w o u l d say it was a few but don't ask me to tell you what I
do not know.
N o w w h i c h of the two m e n fired shots, the two men in
front of the Casspir? — It was the m e n on the furthest side
from m e .
Did he fire in the air? — Yes, he did.
The other one, did he not fire any shots? — He did
25.46
- 694 -
XABA
A nd apart from those four men on foot did you see any
o ther m e n on foot in the proxi m i t y of the Hippo as it a p
p r o a c h e d you? — The Hippo had not come right up to me;
when
the shot w e n t off I ran away.
Yes, but before the shotsv.were fired did you see any
other people on foot in the v i c i n i t y of the Cas s p i r either
a l o ngside it, in front of it, b e h i n d it, apart from the four
m en you have already described? — I had not seen other
people.
A nd at that stage had you only looked to the one s i d e (10)
to your left?
You did not look to your right as well? —
I c o n c e n t r a t e d on w h a t I saw there, w h i c h I just could not
b e lieve to be true.
The two m e n in front, h o w were they d r e s s e d again? —
They were w e a r i n g white overalls w i t h red headbands around
their heads.
That is a full overall? — It was a full overall.
Yes, and red headbands? — Yes.
Could y o u make out the colour from wh e r e you were s t a n d
ing? — Yes, the Hippo was ha v i n g its lights on, on these
(20)
people as they ran *in front of the Hippo.
Yes, but it was shining on that part of their bodies
that you could not see. — No, that is not so.
These lights
do not just shine on the ground.
No, the lights were shining on their backs and they
had their fronts towards you. — Yes, that is so.
And yet y o u saw you could see the colour of their
headbands? — Yes.
How were y o u able to make out the clothes that the men
b ehind wore? — H o w were you able to m a k e out..?
Yes /..
(30)
25.49
- 695 -
XABA
Yes, to see w h a t clothes the m e n be h i n d the Casspir
were wearing. — I did, yes.
Was there s u f f icient light? — There was sufficient
light.
Where did the light come from? — There are these high
ma s t lights in the street just above.
The Hippo's lights
b e h ind were also on.
W h a t colour are the lights of the Hippo, the rear lights?
— They are red.
Red? — T h e y are red.
(10)
N o w could you see w h e t h e r these camouf l a g e outfits that
they were w e a r i n g were in fact uniforms or not? — What I
t h ought was that this was u n i f o r m bec a u s e there is also the
vehicle.
Was it the veh i c l e that made y o u believe that the c l o
thes that they were w e a r i n g were uniforms, police uniforms?
— Yes, I saw that these were ca m o u f l a g e clothes.
I had
seen this p r o p e r l y and I b e l i e v e d that this should be police
u n i f o r m because here is the police v e h i c l e as well.
Yes.
W h e n you recei v e d t r a i n i n g did you also wear
(20)
a c amouf l a g e uniform? — Yes, that is so.
Before the one m an in front of the Hippo fired any
shots, did y o u hear any shots being fired elsew h e r e in the
township? — I h e a r d shots.
So you k n o w exac t l y w h a t these unif o r m s look like? —
I know.
W h e n the shots were fired you t u r n e d around and you
ran away, is that right? — Yes, that is so.
A n d y o u w e n t past the k i t c h e n door? — I k n o c k e d and
went past.
(30)
W h y / ..
Collection Number: AK2672
Goldstone Commission BOIPATONG ENQUIRY Records 1990-1999
PUBLISHER:
Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand
Location:- Johannesburg
©2012
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