K24.1031 - 666 - Y es . you were that XABA So f o r s o m e d a y s p r i o r to t h e d a t e of t h e m a s s a c r e already working at B o i p a t o n g police station? -- Yes, is so. An d t h e r e a s o n t h a t y o u g a v e f o r n o t g o i n g to w o r k fo r about eight days a f t e r t h e m a s s a c r e b e i n g t h a t t h e r e was transport available is t h e r e f o r e no t t r u e ? -- (Was no it a f t e r the massacre?) Y es . -- It w a s t r u e . Now, if y o u w e r e w o r k i n g phone for t ransport? -- at B o i p a t o n g , A c c o r d i n g to my o b s e r v a t i o n s , s t a t i o n c o m m a n d e r at B o i p a t o n g w a s us w o r k i n g t h e r e , at t h e t i m e . not a c t u a l l y Now k n o w l e d g e t h a t we m i g h t be w e l c o m e I'm s o r r y , go t h e r e , that answer makes kn o w i n g well this person would go. On t h e d a y s t h a t for t r a n s p o r t You know, that I was it w a s the (10 in f a v o u r of g o i n g t h e r e w i t h th e to h i m o r we m a y not. no s e n s e to me. -- I would not s t a t i o n e d t h e re us. B u t at s o m e t i m e s , I did not r e p o r t for duty, you told v e r y k e e n to w o r k , I wa s not w e l c o m e until w h y d i d y o u h a v e to because would n ot I would wait late. us e a r l i e r t h i s m o r n i n g t h a t y o u w e r e y o u p u t on y o u r u n i f o r m e v e r y d a y w a n t e d to go to w o r k e v e r y d a y. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? and y o u -- T h a t (20 is so yes. A n d we n o w k n o w t h a t fo r s o m e d a y s a c t u a l l y w e n t to w o r k at B o i p a t o n g ? been reg arded And yet, as d a y s t h a t are you w e n t to B o i p a t o n g , stationed -- Yes, absent -- Y e s, w e n t to w o r k , I should but those days have from work. saying that you were you still at E v a t o n ? A n d do I was b e f o r e the m a s s a c r e you still, or w h e n y o u you were s t i ll h a v e g o n e to E v a t o n . I u n d e r s t a n d y o u to s a y t h a t y o u w e r e m a r k e d absent f r o m w o r k on t h e d a y s t h a t y o u w e n t t o B o i p a t o n g b e c a u s e y o u (30 K24.1160 - 667 - did n o t r e p o r t f o r d u t y r e g a r d e d as d a y s And I take those days XA BA at E v a t o n ? -- Ye s , those days have been of a b s e n t e e i s m . it t h e n t h a t y o u w e r e either? not paid -- T h e m o n e y t h a t w a s in r e s p e c t of d e d u c te d was about R 100, 00. Was t h at for t h os e days reported for duty ferred there? -- as w e l l , for the days that you at B o i p a t o n g b e f o r e y o u w e r e o f f i c i a l l y t r a n s (For th e days t ha t you w e re o f f i c i a l l y t r a n s ferred?) CH'AIRMAN: tioned In o t h e r w o r d s at E v a t o n , those days? daily? sorry. b u t he r e p o r t e d -- No, MR H A T T I N G H : - no, I wa s still st a - not p a i d f o r t h o s e d a y s . Monthly, weekly, -- M o n t h l y . -- Yes, I w as received your receiving salary this in r e s p e c t at t h e e n d of e a c h m o n t h ? it p r o p e r l y . And for those days that you were - inbetween the 14th not a b l e to go to w o r k at a nd t h e 2 1 s t , of t h o s e d a y s e i t h e r ? -- I was were you not p a i d not paid for those days. (20 When did you d i s c o v e r that you were mar ke d d a y s t h a t y o u w e n t to B o i p a t o n g instead this w h e n my s a l a r y was usual k n o w w h y a nd t h e n not the I was tol d t h a t as a b s e n t on t h e of E v a t o n ? salary I had bee n and -- I discovered I w a n t e d to absenting myself. A n d t h a t m u s t t h e n h a v e b e e n at t h e e n d of J u n e ? think (10 at B o i p a t o n g , was he p a i d f o r On w h a t b a s i s w e r e y o u p a i d ? And you have all, W h e n he w a s -- Yes, I it m u s t h a v e b e e n t h e e n d of J u n e . Ye s. N o w, why, to w o r k e v e r y da y , inbetween the if y o u w e r e why did you 14th of J u n e so k e e n on w o r k i n g n ot r e p o r t f o r d u t y and t h e 2 1 s t of J u n e ? and g o i n g at B o i p a t o n g --(Why weren't you..?) (30 W h y / ---- K 24 .1 2 9 1 - 668 - Wh y did you, y o u to E v a t o n , a f ew d a y s when your transport d i d no t a r r i v e to t a k e w h y d i d n ' t y o u go to B o i p a t o n g before? properly welcomed Yes, XABA -- I have already as y o u did f o r s a i d t h a t w e w e r e not at B o i p a t o n g . so w h y d i d y o u t h e n a sk f o r a t r a n s f e r ? -- (W h y did y o u ask .. ?) A s k f o r an o f f i c i a l t r a nsfer from you w e r e not p r o p e r l y w e l c o m e to W a r r a n t O f f i c e r M o t s w e n e , t a l k to t h e s t a t i o n there? E v a t o n to B o i p a t o n g -- Well, if I u l t i ma t e l y spoke t e 1e p h o n i c a 1 l y , a nd a s k e d h i m to commander in B o i p a t o n g , so t h a t a r r a n g e m e n t ^ 10 can be m a d e f o r us to be t r a n s f e r r e d . Who is t h e station commander wh o did not w a nt you t h e r e ? Do y o u k n o w w h e t h e r he is s t i l l -- at B o i p a t o n g , It w a s S e r g e a n t is s t i l l So b e c a u s e y o u w e r e Erasmus. stationed there? not w e l c o m e ther e, t r a n s p o r t f r o m E v a t o n on t h o s e d a y s from the 15th of J u n e to t h e 2 0 t h on w h i c h I had w a i t e d And..okay. -- Y e s, he p o r t w a s to c o m e . Yes, the people -- Yes, t h o s e are t h e I w e n t to B o i p a t o n g to on a r r i v a l said t h at it w a s at B o i p a t o n g I would wait there, at B o i p a t o n g p o l i c e at m y p o l i c e of J u n e ? I w o u l d be t o l d It h as b e e n -- Yes, for f o r my t r a n s p o r t . and d i d y o u t h e n w a i t the t r a n s p o r t ? you waited f o r w h i c h we h a v e no e n t r i e s -- B u t s o m e t i m e s w h e n report for duty there, station (20 that our t r a n s coming. police station for havi ng been told that have called the people station. On ho w m a n y o c c a s i o n s did y o u is t h e p e r s o n stationed there. Y es . days who did that happen, on h o w m a n y d ay s go to B o i p a t o n g and w e r e y o u t o l d t h a t y o u r t r a n s p o r t w o u l d be c o m i n g ? -- The q u e s ti on b ut w e h ad g o t u s e d to g o i n g t h e r e of p h o n i n g a nd happened twice s i t t i n g on t h e p r e m i s e s o f / ---- (30 K 2 4 .1430 of t h i s - 669 police station, w ai t i n g for our trans po rt . On e v e r y o n e of t h o s e d a y s ? go t h e r e and j u s t w a i t t h e r e . "i with us t h a t y o u people And went and sometimes be a b l e to go n o t be. 17th. -- Y es , that ra,n a w a y and t h a t y o u w e n t in S e b o k e n g ? lived on e v e r y d a y we w o u l d we w o u l d T h e m a s s a c r e o c c u r r e d on t h e D id y o u t el l stayed -- Yes, We w o u l d and r e p o r t f o r d u t y bu t s o m e t i m e s Y e s. XABA -- is so. and I fled after the massacre. in S e b o k e n g ? -- Yes, I w e n t and stayed in S e b o k e n g . For how I stayed lo n g d i d y o u s t a y t h e r e , in S e b o k e n g after the massacre? -- (10 f o r a n u m b e r of d a y s . C a n ' t y o u g i v e us an e s t i m a t e ? -- I think it w a s about a w e e k o r so. Yes, and how far is S e b o k e n g f r o m E v a t o n ? very far f r om Evaton, And how far is B o i p a t o n g or h o w f o r is S e b o k e n g CHAIRMAN: Sebokeng. MR H A T T I N G H : to e s t i m a t e If y o u can, know k il o m e t re s but -- W e l l , me w h i c h Eva to n or S e b o k e n g ? -- is E v a t o n f r o m -- I do not k n o w how kilometres? because it is t h e same dis tan ce as to B o i p a t o n g . is f u r t h e s t Evaton away from Boipatong, is f u r t h e s t -- F r o m S e b o k e n g t o B o i p a t o n g or s i m i l a r d i s t a n c e (20 I do not away from Boipatong. Is E v a t o n n o t c l o s e r to S e b o k e n g t h a n B o i p a t o n g to S e b o k e n g ? Yes. yes. I do not ‘ know, I would estimate I would walk from Vereeniging Y e s. (H o w f a r do you- w a n t me to s a y h o w m a n y yes. Can y o u tell -- from Boipatong?) Sebokeng from Boipatong, that, is I do no t k n o w h o w far. it f r o m B o i p a t o n g ? Sebokeng, -- S e b o k e n g is is t h e s a m e d i s t a n c e as f r o m S e b o k e n g to E v a t o n . I am n o t t e r r i b l y t el l m e w h e t h e r S e b o k e n g familiar with is s i t u a t e d the area. m o r e or less Can you inbetween B o i p a t o n g / ---- (30 K24.1588 - 670 - Boipatong N o w, a nd E v a t o n ? are y o u t h e n approximately that s a y i n g to us t h a t d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d of police staying from Sebok e n g than Evaton? 10, -- Y e s . d i r e c t i o n to w a i t f o r t r a n s p o r t ? c u l t y we h a d w a s -- T h e not with the di s t a n c e in t h e o p p o s i t e I did. station 11 k i l o m e t r e s you an d s i t a nd w a i t is m o r e or less So y o u w a n t to g e t to E v a t o n p o l i c e do so y o u h a d to go a b o u t in S e b o k e n g , s t a t i o n to c o m e for yo u r t r a n s p o r t which direction is so. one week that you were c a m e to t h e B o i p a t o n g there -- Yes, XA B A and in o r d e r to in t h e o p p o s i t e actual a-s su c h , distance but - diffi it w a s (10 with our safety. Now, correct youfled from your home after the mass ac re , and y o u w e n t a nd lived is t h a t in S e b o k e n g b e c a u s e y o u w e r e a f r a i d t h a t y o u m i g h t be a t t a c k e d in B o i p a t o n g ? -- Yes, that is so. Do I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t h e n to s ay t h a t d e s p i t e y o u r f e ar , you n e v ertheless patong police Evaton? came into B o i p a t o n g e v e r y m o r n i n g s t a t i o n to w a i t f o r t r a n s p o r t -- Y e s , that to t h e B o i f r o m B o i p a t o n g to is so. W h y d i d y o u do t h a t ? -- W e l l , a c c o r d i n g to me, the people(20 w h o w e r e t r o u b l e s o m e to us w e r e n ' t p e o p l e o r r e s i d e n t s of B o i patong . So w h y d i d y o u f l e e that these people from Boipatong? -- I fled at t h e t i m e had come. Who were the people then that were t r o u b l e s o m e you put though it? -- T h e s e w e r e I don't people who would know who the owners I had h e a r d w a s t h a t t h e s e w e r e come to you, in C o m b i ' s , of t h e C o m b i ' s w e r e , comrades, as from places but what s uc h as Sharpeville. And such as S e b o k e n g ? -- Yes, that is so. A n d / ____ (30 K24.1760 - 671 - And now you were to g e t a w a y f r o m ? place that running -- No, I had f l e d XABA to t h e p e o p l e w h o y o u w e r e t r y i n g I d i d n ot go to t h o s e p e o p l e . to is a q u i e t p l a c e , first place that one would a nd t h a t You see, the is t he g e t to w h e n e n t e r i n g S e b o k e n g a f t e r having gone past the hostel. But yo u were very m uc h very much troubled a f r a i d of t h e h o s t e l ? a f r a i d of t h e h o s t e l , but the police were W e h a v e g o n e to t h e ethnic groups were t h e r e to b r i n g hostel, in f i g h t s a Wednesday, W h y not, referring I'm s o r r y , t i m e on t h a t CHAIRMAN: at S e b o k e n g ? reports that (10 We w o u l d t h e n go on t h e d a y of t h e m a s s a c r e , -- No, station, it at I d i d n o t go on t h a t day. -- No, what I don't understand is w h a t to? I . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ). -- A f t e r t h e incident or w h a t day? 16th/17th. occurred L e t us t a l k a b o u t t h e It w a s t h e MR H A T T I N G H : received in t h e h o s t e l . Let. us t a l k a b o u t t h e m a s s a c r e CHAIRMAN: in t h e h o s t e l d i d y o u a l s o w a i t at t h e p o l i c e on t h a t d a y ? time you were having in q u e s t i o n , Boipatong for t r a n s p o r t ? the not b e i n g an e n d t o s u c h f i g h t s . On t h e e v e n i n g was I was from the hostel. W h y w e r e y o u a f r a i d of t h e p e o p l e -- -- Y es , The It w a s 17th and on t h e n i g h t of (20 16th. 18th. 1 7 t h / 1 8 t h , I'm s o r r y . on t h e W e d n e s d a y e v e n i n g , so y o u w a n t to k n o w about W e d n e s d a y mor ning? MR H A T T I N G H : the 17th, Yes. I w a n t to k n o w d i d y o u w a i t at t h e p o l i c e about Wednesday morning, station on t h e 1 7 t h ? -- I d i d go and w a i t f o r m y t r a n s p o r t . B u t n o t on t h e 18th? -- I d i d n o t go on t h e l 8 t h . (30 \ O n / ... . K24.1884 - 672 - On t h e arrive? -- 17th, you -- Ye s , night you were sa i d , that that di d not I did. at h o m e an d y o u w e n t to bed f a i r l y is t h a t c o r r e c t ? About - just after 20:00? is so. Your Zozo Yes, w h a t d i d y o u do w h e n y o u r t r a n s p o r t I don't remember what And that early, XABA is b e h i n d y o u r p a r e n t s ' home, is t h a t c o r r e c t ? -- is so. Do y o u a l s o h a v e a b r o t h e r w h o Where does he live? s t r e e t w h e r e my p a r e n t s ' Can we have the -- H e home is a p o l i c e m a n ? stays -- Yes. in t h e n e x t s t r e e t f r o m t h e is s i t u a t e d . n a m e of t h a t (10 street please? -- B a r o l o n g Street. Can you give us his n u m b e r , h a v e to t h i n k - P A U S E Is is s i t u a t e d on t h e m a p MR P R E T O R I U S : CHAIRMAN: C a n he m a r k That MR C H A S K A L S O N : different this is c o r r e c t , s e r i e s of Well letters -- I will an X2 M r C h a i r m a n ? house? Mr Chairman. if w e s h o u l d in c a s e a n y t h i n g t u r n s except there ar e no o t h e r m a r k i n g s No, CHAIRMAN: - is y o u r b r o t h e r a l s o a s p e c i a l b u t he MR H A T T I N G H : CHAIRMAN: on w h a t was on t h i s one I understand is a c o n s t a b l e At w h i c h (20 to us e t h i s . MR C H A S K A L S O N : No, not h a v e a record. is t h e f i r s t w i t n e s s Wa s i n d i c a t e where in E X H I B I T 4. I was j u s t w o n d e r i n g and X2 on t h e CHAIRMAN: house? it w i t h Is XI t h e w i t n e s s ' s MR P R E T O R I U S : -- I will 634. it f a r f r o m y o u r p a r e n t s ' the house XI in B a r o l o n g S t r e e t ? - a nd w h e r e I'm s o r r y , constable? -- in t h e S AP . is he s t a t i o n e d ? Mr Chai rm an, He said his b r o t h e r -- In V a n d e r b i j l p a r k . I miss e d that? is a c o n s t a b l e at - s t a t i o n e d ( 3 0 K24.2075 - 673 - XABA at V a n d e r b i j l p a r k . MR H A T T I N G H : Thank you. the m a s s a c r e ? And -- Y e s , he w a s massacre, W as he s t a t i o n e d t h e r e at t h e d a t e of that is so. living there, is t h a t c o r r e c t ? Does he s t i l l at th e h o u s e on t h e d a y of t h e -- Ye s , l iv e t h e r e ? that -- No, is so. h is h o u s e go t b u r n t d o w n a f t e r he f l e d . W h o do y o u t h i n k b u r n t his h o u s e d o w n ? -- I think it is young men from S h a rpeville. Why would p e o p l e f r om o u t s i d e B o i p a t o n g c ome and a t t ac k (10 i police inside Boipa tong? has p o l i c e m e n h a v e c o m e to living H o w do y o u s ay in t h e t o w n s h i p . I don't in t h e -- B o i p a t o n g , so m u c h Can you tell every came a l s o a f r a i d of b e i n g -- Y e s , I wa s about them but it is -- T h a t is-what I heard a t t a c k e d by p e o p l e f r o m a f r a i d of t h a t . living in B o i p a t o n g ? I have heard that --(20 s o m e of in t h e i r h o u s e s . us w h e t h e r p r i o r to t h e m a s s a c r e , into B o i p a t o n g at n i g h t the police in o r d i n a r y v e h i c l e s , as to a r m o u r e d v e h i c l e s ? CHAIRMAN: Ordinary police vehicles? MR H A T T I N G H : people because yes. so w e r e y o u r o t h e r c o l l e a g u e s t h e m w e r e p u t t i n g up opposed attack the police, streets. so w e r e yo u know st ill Now the de ci s i o n they know about that decision? S e b o k e n g or S h a r p e v i l l e ? And it is B o i p a t o n g t h a t killed the people. In B o i p a t o n g ? Yes, Well, is t h a t t h e y w i l l the pol ic e that people -- came CHAIRMAN; Ordinary police vehicles, yes Mr Ch ai rm an . --(The in..?) No, police vehicles wh e t h e r the poli ce came as o p p o s e d to a r m o u r e d in t o B o i p a t o n g police in o r d i n a r y vehicles. -- (30 K24.2217 - 674 - XA B A (Pol i c e ) . MR H A T T I N G H : W h e t h e r . . ( i i n t e r v e n e s ). -- No, they were coming in H i p po 's . W as t h e r e a r e a s o n What was the travelled people for that? reason? in H i p p o ' s -- People a reason, T h e r e a s o n w h y we, is t h a t s h o o t at t h e p o l i c e -- T h e r e w a s y es . the police, it h a d b e e n g e n e r a l l y t a k e n t h a t in t h e t o w n s h i p s . from the towns hips? -- P e o p l e w o u l d s h o o t f r o m the townships. Ye s; but the residents police when they come be d o n e by r e s i d e n t s in B o i p a t o n g . As of B o i p a t o n g . are w h o w i l l where they come from, -- nor would staying in B o i p a t o n g . are saying: Y o u do not say w h o t h e s e I also would -- No, people police? no t be a b l e to say I know where the weapons they (20 Have you ever witnessed -- W e l l , S h a r p e v i l l e was No, but I would attacked on p o l i c e Can you s ay so. a nd w e w e r e t el l attacks such The I am t a l k i n g - s o r r y , I am t a l k i n g a b o u t attacks I are. u se c o m e f r o m . MR H A T T I N G H : not no p o l i c e m a n w as s h o o t at p o l i c e m e n ? no t be a b l e to s p e c i f i c a l l y (10 this would We h a v e a l s o b e e n I un de r s t a n d what you Or w h e r e they came from? s h o o t at t h e a c c o r d i n g to me, a c c o r d i n g to my k n o w l e d g e , k n o w w h o th e p e o p l e would -- No, No p o l i c e m a n w a s e v e r k i l l e d , e ve r shot dead, CHAIRMAN: in? of B o i p a t o n g w o u l d an a t t a c k on t h e police station sent there. were you finished, on p o l i c e in in B o i p a t o n g . -- Mr Chairman? I h a v e seen in B o i p a t o n g . us a b o u t t h a t ? -- T h i s w a s after the Boi pa ton g massacre. Not before? -- N o t b e f o r e . Then come I will b a c k to it l a t e r . Do y o u k n o w b y / ---- a person(30 K 2 4 .2398 - 675 - by t h e n a m e of - y o u m e n t i o n e d earlier in y o u r e v i d e n c e , And t h at a person didn't you? is t h e p e r s o n w h o t h e n m o v e d to K w a M a d a l a ? Do y o u k n o w his him? by t h e n a m e of G e o r g e -- Y e s , u s e d to -- Yes, surname? Y o u g r e w up w i t h XABA that -- No, -- Yes, live is so. in B o i p a t o n g is so. and V* / I do not k n o w . that H a v e y o u e v e r as a p o l i c e m a n , that is so. taken action again st him? Y e s. -- >, Tell us a b o u t some y oun g came r u n n i n g and r e p o r t e d that m a n w a n t e d to t a k e h e r f o r c i b l y . who that was George it? -- A g i r l an d s he t o l d me t h a t I asked this it w a s G e o r g e . and t o l d h i m t h a t w h a t he ha d d o n e w i l l in p r i s o n . Where Was He had b e t t e r - wa s t h i s he s t i l l stop in B o i p a t o n g . -- in B o i p a t o n g a l r e a d y m o v e d to K w a M a d a l a ? I w e n t to c a u s e h i m to land it. in B o i p a t o n g ? living g i r l (10 -- He w a s H e u s e d to be w i t h It w a s in B o i p a t o n g . at t h e t i m e o r h ad he still a group living in t h e t o w n s h i p of p e o p l e t h a t w e n t about doing wrong. And when you occasion? -- Ye s , s p o k e to him, he did, d i d he although D o y o u k n o w any o t h e r p e r s o n whom you have taken action l i s t e n to y o u on t h a t he w a s by t h e stubborn. n a m e of G e o r g e as a p o l i c e m a n ? -- I have taken an A K - 4 7 from this against -- No. Y o u h a v e n e v e r t a k e n an A K - 4 7 f r o m a p e r s o n by t h e George? (20 n a m e of v e r y G e o r g e t h a t we have been disc us si ng. Y es , about? n o w w a s t h a t on t h e o c c a s i o n -- No, Now that f r o m h i m, it w a s is m e n t i o n e d afterwards. is a v e r y w h y di d y o u t h a t y o u j u s t t o l d us serious not tell thing, you took us a b o u t t h a t ? -- an A K - 4 7 away I t h i n k th is in my s t a t e m e n t . (30 W h i c h / ____ K24.2579 - 676 - Which this. You statement? I co nf ir m that. asked I did menti on MR H A T T I N G H : I con f i r m that, a lot a b o u t o c c u r r e n c e s did m a k e m e n t i o n of this Mr Hattingh, relevance of t h i s G e o r g e MR H A T T I N G H : CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman. in t h e t o w n s h i p and I as w e l l . Now w h en did you take the A K - 4 7 CHAIRMAN: may away from George? I just enquire, is t h e r e d i r e c t incident? Mr Chairman. I would submit there is. (10 V e r y wel 1 . MR H A T T I N G H : was interview I n t e r v i e w w i t h who-? -- W i t h M r P r e t o r i u s . MR P R E T O R I U S : I was -- D u r i n g t h e see..(intervenes). CHAIRMAN: -- XABA When did you take this A K - 4 7 a w a y f r o m h i m ? -- It in J a n u a r y . Of t h i s y e a r ? And was -- Of t h i s y e a r , he t h e n already living yes. in K w a M a d a l a ? -- Ye s , that is s o . Where did you find him with the AK? of p e o p l e t h a t h a d c o m e i nt o t h e t o w n s h i p , tavern where they assaulted g a v e c h a s e at t h e m . rank for the t a x i ' s people. I followed. s o m e of t h e s e p e o p l e t h a t The people then o n l y o n e of t h e m r e m a i n e d I suggested t hat we s ho ul d Yes, well, (20 When they produced these AK-47's houses. m a n w h o had r e m a i n e d in t h e t o w n s h i p W h e n t h e y g o t to a t a x i - shooting. of m i n e and t h e y had g o n e to a The you th s they started a way, a group bound for Sebokeng they produced AK-47's o n e of t h e m had a p u m p - g u n . Now -- H e w as w i t h r a t h e r n o t do into shooting, I was with ran a friend friend that we ap proach this alone, it, we do n ot w a n t t h e y ran had been behind. to t h i s behind fled, a n d my f r i e n d t h e n suggested unarmed. all the de tails, I asked you where d i d y o u t a k e t h e gun a w a y f r o m -him? -- This person ran into a house. I w e n t / .... K 2 4 .2764 - 677 - w e n t to t h e h o u s e , person. I w e n t to t h i s He the n t h r e w this CHAIRMAN: stories. Mr Xaba, Just just where, -- I g o t t h i s -- You c o n f i rm ed q u e s t i o n was: gun. is: Where gun You give and a n s w e r No, d i d y o u t a k e t h a t gun, u n d e r t h e b e d. that you took There was he about, it is n ot G e o r g e . an AK f r o m G e o r g e . W he re did you take had a gun, long it. And the person that you have been ta lk in g was that Ge or ge ? George r u n n i n g a f te r this g un u n d e r a b e d. l i s t e n to t h e q u e s t i o n , The q u e s ti on MR H A T T I N G H : house answer the que st io n. MR S I T H O L E : where? XABA My next it a w a y f r o m G e o r g e ? is o n e of t h e p e o p l e w h o s o m e b o d y e ls e w h o s e gun -- (10 ran a w a y w i t h is t h e g u n t h a t his I got f r o m u n d e r t h e bed. CHAIRMAN: No, M r X a b a , please l i s t e n to me now. d i d y o u t a k e a gun f r o m G e o r g e ? MR H A T T I N G H : Well, specifically CHAIRMAN: -- W e l l , then said so. Well, you I was I do not u n d e r s t a n d that correct about o r not, that did you say t h at ? You even a gun and an A K - 4 7 from George. (20 an A K - 4 7 f r o m G e o r g e , -- It w a s is not f rom George. s a i d to us t h a t y o u t o l d M r P r e t o r i u s it? -- I said yes, I was asked if I h ad e v e r r e I have made mention thereof in statement. On t h e e v e n i n g w o k e y o u up? Yes. -- us t h a t y o u t o o k it an d he c o n f i r m e d covered y o u b e c a u s e yo u _ you told MR H A T T I N G H : - s a y i n g t h a t G e o r g e had been d e m a n d i n g f o r a g un f r o m me. Mr Xaba, asked -- No. said that you took actually You I was -- in q u e s t i o n , the ev ening (Is t h i s t h e e v e n i n g You w en t to bed j u s t of t h e a t t a c k , what of t h e m a s s a c r e ? ) after 20:00 I think you sa id. a w o k e n by n o i s e . (30 C H A I R M A N / . - . .. K24.2984 - 678 - -CHAIRMAN: What was the noise? XABA -- W h i c h w a s gunshots. Sorry. MR H A T T I N 6 H : woke And what were your up, w h a t w e r e y o u r what was g o i n g o n? i m m e d i a t e t h o u g h t s w h e n yo u immediate thoughts, -- I a s k e d m y s e l f w h a t did you think if t h e p o l i c e w e r e perhaps • dispersing riots people that were causing commotions in t h e night but then for the p o l i c e and n o i s e s , I s a i d to m y s e l f t h e u s u a l is n o t t h a t of u s i n g a u t o m a t i c or practice guns w he n d i s persing people. Right, automatic and t h e guns? -- shots Most that you heard, of t h e shots, were they shots yes, from (10 were from automatic guns. Can you d i s t i n g u i s h f i r e d and t h e — No, I would Yes. sound made be twe en the s o u n d m a d e by an AK b e i n g by an R5 o r R4 f o r instance being fired? not. So w h e n y o u - w h e n t h e t h o u g h t o c c u r r e d to y o u t h a t t h e p o l i c e do not n o r m a l l y use a u t o m a t i c g u n s to d i s p e r s e w hat did yo u then t h i n k w h a t did yo u t h i n k w h a t was I then s a i d to m y s e l f : Yes. -- Were you This could people happening? not be t h e p o l i c e s h o o t i n g . I t h e n w e n t o u t of t h e h o u s e . n ot a f r a i d ? -- I w as (20 not afraid. The pr ev iou s time when you heard automatic w e r e t o o a f r a i d to go o u t of t h e h o u s e , you gunfire, remained you inside. -- Before the m a s s a c r e ? Y es . -- Yes, I was afraid. W h y a f r a i d on t h e f i r s t o c c a s i o n -- I had d e c i d e d killed even r a t h e r to go o u t b e c a u s e inside houses. am k i l l e d o r not, a n d n o t on t h i s but Now I decided people occasion? sometimes get to go ou t , w h e t h e r I I w a s g o i n g ou t . Did you t h in k t h a t you m i g h t as w e l l be k i l l e d o u t s i d e ? -- W e l l / ____ (30 K24.3203 - 67 9 - XABA -- W e l l , w h a t c a m e to m y t h o u g h t is t h a t b e c a u s e t h e s o u n d of a H i p p o , W h e n di d y o u -- While Hippo, Y es . after at t h a t also heard the 7* stage? s o u n d of t h e I h ad g o n e out. but you heard the gun sh ot s I had h e a r d I m i g h t get some help. h e a r t h e s o u n d of t h e H i p p o , I heard the g u n s h ot s,. I it w a s Yes, let me go out, I had h e a r d b e f o r e you w e n t out? -- it, y e s . At that s t a g e y o u h a d p.ot h e a r d t h e H i p p o y e t ? had n o t h e a r d t h e H i p p o , -- I yes. So y o u c o u l d n o t h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t t h e H i p p o w o u l d be t h e r i 10 to p r o t e c t y o u ? Thought t h a t ? -- -- I thought it w o u l d . . ? What it w o u l d Would be t h e r e ? I knew was that there were around the t o w n s hi p in t h e n i g h t . the t o w n s h i p I w e n t to bed. before Where did you to b e d ? -- see p o l i c e m e n I came back home before across does this w h er e my parent s' Y es . then move Well, policemen T h e r e had been p o l i c e m e n in in t h e t o w n s h i p b e f o r e y o u w e n t I w a s on my w a y -- No, -- I wa s f r o m a r e l a t i v e of m i n e . live? -- In t h e same street as (20 is s i t u a t e d . y o u t h e n d e c i d e d to go o u t s i d e in t h e d i r e c t i o n what normally a passing Hippo when relative home Alright, coming from? What made you think I w e n t to b e d. ' Back home from wh er e ? Where be t h e r e . that from where you heard the is n o t a nd di d y o u shots so. d i d y o u do w h e n y o u g o t o u t s i d e ? -- ( M e c h a n i c a l defect). (30 W h e n / ____ 25 - 680 - XABA When you got to the gate did y o u then observe the Casspir? — Yes, I saw it. Can you tell us h o w far it was away from y o u at that stage? — It was alr e a d y m o v i n g in our street w h e n I got to the gate. Yes, in M a j o l a Street but was it a l r e a d y in front of your house or was it still a p p r o a c h i n g your house? — I think it could have been about four or five houses away. CHAIRMAN: Was it still coming towards your house? — It was still co m i n g towards our house. MR HATTINGH; (10) A m I correct in saying it was co m i n g from the d i r ec t i o n of L e k o a Street? — It was coming from the d i r e c tion of Lekoa Street and m o v i n g in the d i r e c t i o n of Slovo Park. It was there f o r e co m i n g from your left? — Yes, it was. N o w you told us in answer to q u e s tions put to you by Mr Chaskalson, that p h o t o graphs were taken w i t h you s t a n d ing in the p o s i t i o n wh e r e the Cas s p i r was w h e n you first saw it, is that correct? — I was asked to get a policem a n to stand there. Sorry, I think you are correct. (20) You showed a p o l i c e m a n where he had to go and stand and that p o s i t i o n was where the Cas s p i r was w h e n you first saw it? — Yes. A nd correct me if I am m i s t a k e n but I u n d e r s t o o d your further evidence in this regard to be that subs e q u e n t l y you were shown a p h o t o g r a p h and you did not agree that that p o liceman was standing in the p o s i t i o n w h i c h y o u indicated at the time that the p h o t o g r a p h was taken in your presence. — That is so yes. Are you saying then that they m u s t have taken a n o t h e r (30) p h o t o g r a p h / .. 25.0132 - 681 - XABA p h o t o g r a p h in your ab sence w i t h the p o l i c e m a n standing f u r ther away from your house than the p o s i t i o n that you i n d i cated? — No, I do not think they took other photographs but in my m i n d w h a t I k n o w is that a camera has what is c a l led a lens, so I t hink they m u s t have caused this lens to m ake the person appear further than the place I had i n dicated. But from all that I gather that y o u are pretty sure where the C a s s p i r was w h e n you first saw it? — You are p r etty sure? (.10) You seem to be pr e t t y cer t a i n where it was because you a r e able to say on the p h o t o g r a p h it appears to be further than the p o s i t i o n that you i n d i c a t e d at the time when the p h o t o g r a p h was taken. — You see but a c c o r d i n g to me they should not have asked me the q u e s t i o n wh e r e this Hippo was w h e n I saw it bec a u s e it was not stationary, it was in m o tion. Yes, but one can m o r e or less indicate w h a t a position was w h e n you saw it for the first time. — Yes, e s t i mati n g I c ould do that and it was about the sixth house. (20) The sixth house? — Yes. * A n d did you w h e n the p h o t o g r a p h was taken, did you take up the p o s i t i o n more or less at the sixth house from your house, or the p o l i c e m a n sorry, did the p o l i c e m a n take up the posi t i o n more or less oppo s i t e the sixth house from your house? — W h e n I p o i n t e d out a house where I had last seen it w h e n I left the gate, you see I was just doing this to get rid of these people bec a u s e they were speaking to me in an u n m a n n e r l y way. Sorry, can I just get this clear. Are you denying now /.. (30) 25.06 - 682 - XABA n o w that you showed a p o l i ceman where to stand and that that p o s ition was supposed to be where the Cas s p i r was w h e n you saw it for the first time? — I do agree that I did indicate to a p o l i c e m a n where to stand, this is w h e r e I had last seen the Hippo. Yes, last seen the Hippo. — Yes. So did you not indicate a p o s i t i o n w h e r e you saw it fcr the first time? — I did not indicate that because I had to do w i t h people who were not speak i n g to me in a m a n nerly. way, they were just speaking rou g h l y to me. (10) W h y did they ask you to indicate the p o s i t i o n where you had last seen the Casspir? — Why did they..? Why did they ask you for that posit i o n ? — I think they just w a n t e d to d e t e r m i n e as to w h e t h e r I had seen it p r o p erly and/or w h e t h e r it had- b e e n far or not. A n d are you saying tha't the p o s i t i o n of the Casspir that y o u saw on the p h o t o g r a p h w h i c h a p p e a r e d to be further away than the distance, the posi t i o n that you indicated, that that was a p h o t o g r a p h of the Cass p i r w h e r e you had last seen it? — Yes, that is so. (20) But he also asked you on the o c c a s i o n w h e n you were shown the photograph, h o w could you see the people behind the Cass p i r w i t h the Cas s p i r co m i n g towards you and the lights shining onto you? — Yes, I was a s k e d that. A n d were you not asked to indicate the posit i o n of the Ca s spir w h e n you first saw it? — I was not. Are you sure? — Yes, I am sure. A n d let us just deal w i t h this o c c a s i o n w h e n you were asked to point out c e r t a i n points. W h a t else were you asked to point out on that occasion? — I was asked to stand at (30) 25.09 - 683 - the* door of the shack. XABA I was m a d e to do m a n y things. Yes, let us deal w i t h it. Were you asked to stand at the door of the shack in w h i c h you lived? — Yes. And was a picture taken of you w h i l s t you were s t a n d ing there? — Yes, I was. Were you asked to point out any other things to them? — I was asked to stand next to the shack, they took p h o t o graphs from the g a t e . W i t h y o u stan d i n g right next to the shack? — I was standing next to it, a little dist a n c e from it. (10) Why were you asked to stand there? — I w o u l d not know. Did you tell t h e m a n y t h i n g about the posi t i o n where you were asked to go and stand? — I had not told t h e m a n y thing. Is your shack visible from the gate? — No, it is not. Were they perhaps trying to show the d i s t a n c e .from the gate to your shack? — I did not ask t h e m w h a t was actually taking place because I could not even p r o p e r l y talk to them. What other ph o t o g r a p h s were taken there? — I was asked to stand at the gate. (20) And did they take a p h o t o g r a p h of you standing at the gate? — Yes, that is so. Was that the p o s i t i o n where y o u stood w h e n you saw the C a s spir coming? — Yes, that is so. And any other pho t o g r a p h s ? — No, none other. W h e n you were standing at the gate and when you saw the C a sspir coming along, did you at that stage already observe the two people in the c a m o u f l a g e unif o r m s be h i n d it? — Yes, that is so. Where were they w a l k i n g in r e l a t i o n to the Casspir? T h e y / .. (30) 25.11 - 684 - XABA — They were m o v i n g be h i n d it, not close to it and they were actually trotting. W o u l d you say they were more or less in line w i t h the C a sspir - b e h i n d it? — They were about in line w i t h it, behind. ^ And the C a s s p i r itself, w h e r e in rela t i o n to the road was it travelling, in the mi d d l e of the road, right, lefthand side? — It was in the middle of that street. >« The street in w h i c h you lived, is it a tar r e d road? — It is a gravel road. Yes. (10) Can you give us an indica t i o n here in this room if possible how far the two men in u n i f o r m a p p e a r e d to be b e h i n d the Casspir? — They were at the d i s t a n c e as from about where I am sitting to where Mr Preto r i u s is sitting. CHAIRMAN: 10 to 12 metres? No, a bit more, about 12 to 15 metres? MR HATTINGH: We can pace it off or m e a s u r e it, Mr C h a i r man, I w o u l d say 10 to 12 is more accurate. CHAIRMAN; M a y I just ask, could you see the colour of the two men in camouflage, were they w h i t e or black? — Yes, 1(20) could see. -4 And? — They were white. An d the two m e n w a l k i n g in front? — Those were black. MR HATTINGH; The two m e n b e h i n d the Casspir, you said they were running or trotting? — Yes, they were. And they were (simultaneously) — And t h e y . . Sorry? — ..were tr y i n g to keep pace w i t h the Hippo. And you also said they had guns? — Yes, that is so. Did you observe that fact w h e n y o u n o t i c e d them the first time? — Yes, that is so. (30) Could /.. 25.14 - 685 - XABA Could you see w h a t kind of guns? — Yes, I could. Yes, w h a t were they? — They were autom a t i c rifles. Can you say w h a t kind, R l , R5? AKs? — A c c o r d i n g to the length that I saw it could have been Rls. Rls. Are you saying there f o r e that the guns that they had were longer than the AK and the R4 or R5? — I w o u l d not really say that but these were long guns. W h a t m a d e you think that they were Rls? — Well, a c c o r d ing to the m a g a z i n e I w o u l d say they could have been Rls or even R5s. (10) I thought you said they a p p e a r e d to be Rls? — Yes, I am not spe c i f i c a l l y saying they were Rls, it is an e s t i m a tion. But they were long ones? — Yes, they were long. A n d did y o u say somet h i n g about the m a g a z i n e of the guns that y o u saw? — Magazine? Of the guns. — Y o u see there are m a n y kinds of guns. Pump guns are also long guns. Yes. — But I say they were a u t o m a t i c bec a u s e I saw the magazine. Can you describe the m a g a z i n e s that y o u saw? (20) Were they cu rved or straight? — No, I w o u l d not be able to see w h e ther it is a cu r v e d m a g a z i n e or not in the night. But you saw the m a g a z i n e s ? — Yes, I did. A n d that is h o w you k n e w they w e r e automatic rifles? — Yes, that is how. Well, if y o u were able to see t h e m w h y can't you d e scribe them? — I do not just w a n t to talk about something I d id not p r o p e r l y see. You k n o w that an R5 is m u c h shorter than an R l , d o n ' t (30) 25.18 - 686 - XABA you? — I do k n o w that the R5 is shorter than the Rl but h a v ing looked at this thing and ha v i n g seen that it is a long gun, though I did not look at it for a long time, I could see that it was a long gun, it is not a pistol. No w why do you say it could have been an R5? — I do not say it was a c t u a l l y an R5 but a c c o r d i n g to the sound of the shots w h a t I thought to m y s e l f was that it could be an R5, Rl and it could also be an AK-47. I had tho u g h t about seeing w h e t h e r or not it has a magazine. Why was that important to y o u at the time? — Well, (10) ha v ing seen h o w these people were d r e s s e d I saw the guns and I saw that they are m a g a z i n e s on those guns. Yes, but why did y o u p a r t i c u l a r l y take notice of the m a g azine? W h y were you in t e r e s t e d in e s t a b l i s h i n g w h a t type of guns it was that these people were carrying? — Well, a c c or d i n g to me, people, d r e s s e d in that w a y are not members of the police. They are not supposed to be carrying such guns, that is w h y I looked at these things and I saw this. We are still tal k i n g about the guns that the people b e h ind the C a s s p i r had - y o u realise that? — Are we s t i l l (20) d i s c u s s i n g them? Yes. — No, I am tal k i n g about the people that were in front. THE C O M M I S S I O N ADJO U R N S THE C O M M I S S I O N RESUMES N T I E T S A M O S T E R X A B A , s.u.o. EX A M I N A T I O N BY M R HATTI N G H (through interpreter) (CONT.) : Have y o u taken your p o c ket book back? — Yes, I did take it back. May we have it, please? M r Chairman, m a y this book be ha n d e d in as - I think E X H I B I T . . MR PRETORIUS: 25. (30) MR CHASKALSON; /.. 25.21 - 687 - MR CHASKALSON; XABA W o u l d it not be poss i b l e to m a k e copies of the rele v a n t parts and let the w i t n e s s have his book? MR ROSSOUW: M R HATTINGH Mr Hattingh, do you need the poc k e t book now? No, I do not. M R ROSSOUW: Can it be taken .. M R HATT I N G H A n d photocopied. M R ROSSOUW: Wh a t about MR HATTINGH That is quite a lot of p h o t o c o p y i n g to do. ; relev a n t parts? That was the suggestion. I w o u l d say sta r t ing on the first page up to 21 June, Mr Chairman. It is (10) not so m a n y pages and then also if I m a y be permitted, I ma y have to come back to it and.. MR ROSSOUW; MR PRETORIUS; MR HATTINGH; H o w m a n y copies do we u s u a l l y have, about 10? 10. Mr Chairman, we tried to m a k e copies of it this m o r n i n g w h e n we first r e c e i v e d it but u n f o r t u n a t e l y our p h o t o c o p y mac h i n e broke down but I am sure another one was available to the committee, to the commission; I do not know. W h e n I say ours broke down, the one that we had furnished to us by the police. N o w Constable, just before the lunch (20) a d j o u r n m e n t we were t a l k i n g . a b o u t the firearms that the men had that came running along w i t h the Casspir. You then said you u n d e r s t o o d I was r e f e r r i n g to the m e n in front and not the m e n be h i n d the Casspir. — T h a t is so. So I w o u l d just like to get c l a r i t y on this aspect. am going to ask you again. I At w h a t stage did you see that the m e n b e h i n d the C a s s p i r had firearms? — As it was d r a w ing near, just be f o r e I m o v e d away from where I was st a n d ing I saw that these people were c a r r y i n g firearms. W h e n you spoke about the sixth house this morning, w h a t / .. (30) 25.24 ~ 688 - XABA w h a t did you intend to convey by tal k i n g about the 6th house? Was that where y o u saw the C a s s p i r for the first time? — This is w h e n I first saw the Cas s p i r at about the 6th house. "T And at that stage could you not see the m e n behind it? — W h e n I first saw it, I did not see those men. / W h y is that? — I w o u l d not have been able to see them, they m i g h t have been de e p e r b e h i n d the Hippo w h e n I first saw it. Are you saying that you did not see t h e m because t h e y (10) were not visible to you? — Well I can only think that the r eason mi g h t have been that they m i g h t have been closer b e hind the Hippo. It could perhaps be that as they mo v e d on the gap betw e e n t h e m and the Hippo m i g h t have widened. That could perhaps have been the reason why I could see t h em later. If they were as far beh i n d the C a s s p i r w h e n you first saw them, w h e n you first saw the Casspir, w o u l d you have seen them? — Do I think I w o u l d have b e e n able to see them if they had been further be h i n d it? (20) If they were as far be h i n d it - as they were when you first saw them? — I do not think so. I do not even know where this Hippo came from, w h e t h e r it had been coming along that street all the way or w h e t h e r it had tu r n e d into that street just before I saw it. I do not know. Right, whe n you saw the Hippo for the first time - I assume y o u m u s t have seen the m e n in front of it i m m e d i a tely? — W h e n I first saw the Hippo I r e a l i s e d that there were people in front of it. Well, h o w did y o u realise, h o w did you come to r e a l i s e / .. (30) 25.29 - 689 - XABA realise that there were people in front of it? — The p e o ple I first saw were the people in front of the Hippo. The Hippo has lights and these lights were on. And the lights were shining on these people? — Yes, they were. How far were these two people frojn the front of the Casspir? — The people in front of the Hippo were not as far away from it as the people be h i n d it. They were nearer. A n d the lights of the veh i c l e were be h i n d them as they a p p r o a c h e d you? — The lights were beh i n d them? _ (10) Yes. — Yes. i Were they run n i n g n e x t .to each other, close together or far apart? — T h e y were a dist a n c e apart. More or less abreast? — Yes. A n d could you im m e d i a t e l y see that they had firearms? — Yes, just w h e n I saw t h e m I also real i s e d that they were c a r rying guns. These were long guns and visible. Can you give us some i n d i c a t i o n of the distance beteen them? How far were they apart? — I w o u l d say about the w i d t h of the Hippo. I w a n t to t h i n k the one was in (20) front of the one light w h i l e the o t h e r one was in front of the other light. A n d you gave the dist a n c e that the m e n behind the C a s spir were from the C a s s p i r as from wh e r e you were sit ting up to Mr Pretor i u s ? — Yes, that is so. Can you give us some e s t i m a t i o n of the distance that the m e n were in front of the Casspir? — They w e r e nearer. They could have been as far as from wh e r e I am sitting to this chair, the o r d e r l y ' s chair. A b o u t four met r e s from where he is sitting to this c h a i r / .. (30) 25.32 - 690 - XABA chair. And did you immediately, y o u said you i m m e d iately n o ticed that they had firearms. C o u l d you see what type of firearms they were carrying? — Yes, I have already e x p l a ined that what I n o t i c e d was that these were long guns. So the guns that you were talk i n g about before lunch were the guns that the m e n in front had? — Yes. And did each of t h e m have a gun? — That is so. A n d were the guns that they had similar? — A c c o r d i n g to my observations, yes. (10) W h e r e was the Cass p i r more or less w h e n you noticed the men b e h i n d it for the first time? — Where were they, these men? No, no, where was the Cass p i r w h e n he o b s e r v e d the m e n be h i n d it for the first time. — It was at about the third or the fourth house. Could y o u imm e d i a t e l y see that the m e n be h i n d the C a s s pir also had guns? — I saw these people beh i n d the Hippo w h e n it was nearer, about the third or the fourth house. Yes, but that was not the question. The q u e s t i o n w a s (20) w h e n y o u saw t h e m for the first time did y o u immediately see that they had guns? — Yes, that is so. And can you desc r i b e those guns for us? — A c c o r d i n g to w h a t I saw they were similar. A n d they are now about two to three houses closer to y ou than they were w h e n you saw the guns in the hands of the m e n in front for the first time? -- You are n o w confusin g me. Y ou want me to be saying these people were about the third h ouse w h e n I first saw them? I have said the veh i c l e was at about the third house w h e n I first saw those people b e h i n d / .. (30) 25.34 - 691 - XABA b ehind it. All I am saying to you is at that stage they were cl o ser to you than the two in front were w h e n you saw their guns for the first time? The men b e h i n d behind, w h e n you saw their guns for the first time, were closer to you than wh e n you saw the guns in the hands of the m e n in front of the Casspir? MR SITHOLE: No, the witn e s s does not understand. — He does not u n d e r s t a n d at all. M R ROSS'OUW; It is a very d i f f i c u l t c o n c e p t to put across (10) Is it v e r y important? MR HATTINGH; other way. Perhaps I should try and deal w i t h it in a n C o u l d you cle a r l y see the guns in the hands of the m e n be h i n d the Cas s p i r w h e n you saw t h e m the first time? — Yes, I did. An d can you desc r i b e the m a g a z i n e s of those two guns for us? — I could not give you a d e s c r i p t i o n of the people that were nearer to me, a d e s c r i p t i o n of the magazines of the guns c a r r i e d by the people that were nearer to me, so I w o u l d not be able to give you a d e s c r i p t i o n of the guns (20) that were carr i e d by the people that were further away from me. 4 Could you not see the guns clearly? — I saw the guns. I am used to guns, I w o r k w i t h guns ev e r y day. Yes. — So even if it is dark, if a person is carrying a gun then I w o u l d be able to see that this is a gun that is being car r i e d by the person even in the dark. Yes, that is the very re a s o n w h y I am asking you these questions. You k n o w guns, you saw the guns clea r l y - can't y o u tell us w h a t kind of gun it was? Was it an AK, was it (30) 25.38 - 692 - XABA a R5, a R4, shotgun, w h a t was it? — I did not look at these guns so c a r e f u l l y as to be able to see w h e t h e r they had AKs or whatever. magazine. I do k n o w that an A K has a curved Seeing w h a t type of guns these were, AKs, R5s, or whatever, was not so important to me. Why not? — W h a t I thought was that the people behind the people in w h a t seemed to be police unifo r m s were p e r haps cha s i n g the people that were run n i n g in front of the H ippo and as I was asking m y s e l f w h e t h e r these people were ch asing .those in front of the Hippo, a shot w e n t off. (10) H a v ing seen that these people were c a r r y i n g guns were suf ficient to me. Just on the guns, these four m e n w e r e they carrying their guns in their hands, slung over their shoulders or what? — They were each c a r r y i n g these guns in one hand, the people in front had the barrel’ s of the guns facing up and the people be h i n d the Hippo had the barrels of their guns facing d o w n w a r d as they trotted. N o w you have alre a d y told us that the m e n be h i n d the C a s spir were sort of trot t i n g behind. — Yes, even the (20) Hippo was m o v i n g slowly. Yes, and the m e n in front were they t h e r e f o r e also t r o tting in front of the Hippo — They w e r e yes. The Hippo also c o n t i n u e d m o v i n g slowly. Why did you think that the people b e h i n d the Hippo m i g h t p o s s i b l y be c h a s i n g the m e n in front? — I was just t h i nking could these mem b e r s of the police perhaps be c h a sing after these people in front of the Hippo because they were wearing, the people behind, police uniforms. Yes, but you k n o w w h a t a m a n runs like w h e n he runs a w a y / .. (30) 25.42 - 693 - XABA away from the police and w h a t a p o l i c e m a n runs like w h e n he is chasing after a man run n i n g away? — Yes, I do know. A nd that was c l e a r l y not the picture that you saw there? — A n y b o d y who w o u l d have seen h o w fast these p e o ple were running w h i c h is ordi n a r y trott i n g w o u l d have r e a lised this. I also said to myself: these people are not actually runn i n g away, they were just trotting. Yes. — They are not being chased. At what stage was the first shot fired? MR ROSSOUW: W i t h reference to what, Mr Hattir.gh? With (10) w here the Hippo was, w i t h w h a t time it was? MR HATTINGH: Perhaps I should put it this way. H o w close were the people in front of the H i p p o w h e n the first shot was fired? — How close? How close to you. — It could have b e e n about the fourth house where I last saw the Hippo. W here? — Where I last saw the Hippo. And was that the stage w h e n the shot was fired? — Yes. I am not sure, h o w m a n y shots were fired? One or more? — One cannot count the a m m u n i t i o n shot by an automatic (20) gun when there is shooting from an automatic gun. Yes. So I gather that m a n y shots were fired? — I w o u l d say it was a few but don't ask me to tell you what I do not know. N o w w h i c h of the two m e n fired shots, the two men in front of the Casspir? — It was the m e n on the furthest side from m e . Did he fire in the air? — Yes, he did. The other one, did he not fire any shots? — He did 25.46 - 694 - XABA A nd apart from those four men on foot did you see any o ther m e n on foot in the proxi m i t y of the Hippo as it a p p r o a c h e d you? — The Hippo had not come right up to me; when the shot w e n t off I ran away. Yes, but before the shotsv.were fired did you see any other people on foot in the v i c i n i t y of the Cas s p i r either a l o ngside it, in front of it, b e h i n d it, apart from the four m en you have already described? — I had not seen other people. A nd at that stage had you only looked to the one s i d e (10) to your left? You did not look to your right as well? — I c o n c e n t r a t e d on w h a t I saw there, w h i c h I just could not b e lieve to be true. The two m e n in front, h o w were they d r e s s e d again? — They were w e a r i n g white overalls w i t h red headbands around their heads. That is a full overall? — It was a full overall. Yes, and red headbands? — Yes. Could y o u make out the colour from wh e r e you were s t a n d ing? — Yes, the Hippo was ha v i n g its lights on, on these (20) people as they ran *in front of the Hippo. Yes, but it was shining on that part of their bodies that you could not see. — No, that is not so. These lights do not just shine on the ground. No, the lights were shining on their backs and they had their fronts towards you. — Yes, that is so. And yet y o u saw you could see the colour of their headbands? — Yes. How were y o u able to make out the clothes that the men b ehind wore? — H o w were you able to m a k e out..? Yes /.. (30) 25.49 - 695 - XABA Yes, to see w h a t clothes the m e n be h i n d the Casspir were wearing. — I did, yes. Was there s u f f icient light? — There was sufficient light. Where did the light come from? — There are these high ma s t lights in the street just above. The Hippo's lights b e h ind were also on. W h a t colour are the lights of the Hippo, the rear lights? — They are red. Red? — T h e y are red. (10) N o w could you see w h e t h e r these camouf l a g e outfits that they were w e a r i n g were in fact uniforms or not? — What I t h ought was that this was u n i f o r m bec a u s e there is also the vehicle. Was it the veh i c l e that made y o u believe that the c l o thes that they were w e a r i n g were uniforms, police uniforms? — Yes, I saw that these were ca m o u f l a g e clothes. I had seen this p r o p e r l y and I b e l i e v e d that this should be police u n i f o r m because here is the police v e h i c l e as well. Yes. W h e n you recei v e d t r a i n i n g did you also wear (20) a c amouf l a g e uniform? — Yes, that is so. Before the one m an in front of the Hippo fired any shots, did y o u hear any shots being fired elsew h e r e in the township? — I h e a r d shots. So you k n o w exac t l y w h a t these unif o r m s look like? — I know. W h e n the shots were fired you t u r n e d around and you ran away, is that right? — Yes, that is so. A n d y o u w e n t past the k i t c h e n door? — I k n o c k e d and went past. (30) W h y / .. 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