University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Archives/Special Collections
Attilio Vespa Memoir
V636. Vespa, Attilio (1907-1983)
Interview and memoir
1 tape, 50 mins., 17 pp.
ITALIAN-AMERICANS PROJECT
Vespa, Italian coal miner, recalls coming to Springfield, its Italian-American
community, prohibition, coal mines and WWII.
Interview by John Bucari, 1972
OPEN
See collateral file
Archives/Special Collections LIB 144
University of Illinois at Springfield
One University Plaza, MS BRK 140
Springfield IL 62703-5407
© 1972, University of Illinois Board of Trustees
Preface
This manuscript is the
John Bucari fop the
t of a tape recorded interview conducted by
ory Office on Deter 6, 1972,
Attilio Vespa waa born in Itzqly in 1908. He mnred to Pnerica in 1913 and
located in Springfield in 1919. Mr. Vespa wrked innmy of the area's
coal mines and is familiar wifh union activities in those mines.
Readers of the oral historypmir should bear in mind that it is a
transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator and
editor 8ought t o preserve the infoml, comrsational style that is
inherent in such historical wurces. S ~ E M State
O ~ University is not
responsible for the factual accuracy of the m i r , nor for views
expressed therein; t h a e are for the reader to judge,
The inmuscript m y be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be
reproduced in whole or in part by any mans, electronic or mechanical,
without pelmission in writing fran the Oral History Office, Sangamon
State University, Springfield, Illinois, 62794-9243.
Attilio Ve~pa,Springfield, Illinois, Decanber 6, 1972.
John Bucari, Interviewr.
Q: Mr. Vespa, that first name is interesting because I k m that your
niclmame is Till. Haw did that originate?
A: I don't recollect really that far back. But it was either a Sister,
my teacher at the old S t . W r y ' s School, or Sister Catherine, or Sister
Pius at S t , Joseph's School. The kids used to make fun of my nane so she
changed my rmm to Attilius, but I knaw she changed it to Till to shorten
it. So that's hrrw I got to be Attiliu,
Q: N m , it was shortened because of what reason?
A: Because the kids would tease m.
Q:
Because it was an Italian name or a foreign name?
A:
Right.
Q: Hnw old w r e you when you first came to this country?
A: Five years old.
Q:
In what year was that?
It was in 1914 or 1913--it was just before the war, so it rmst have
been 1913.
A:
Q: 'Ihen you cane here wi th your family?
A: No, I cam here with my mother and brother. FJbr Dad was here already.
Q: I see. Hhat was his profession at that time?
A: He vvas a coal miner,
Q: By any chance, do you ramrhr what area he worked in?
A: No. He didn't mrk in Springfield. He mt us in Springfield Pram
New York, h t at the time, he was working in a little town in wuthern
Illinois called Sesser. Sesser, Illinois.
Q: men he met you in New York?
Attilio Vespa
2
A: No, he met us in Springfield.
Q:
Then where did you move to?
A: Then we m e d to Sesser. W stayed one or two days in Springfield
with sanre families that I don't rmmnbr, and then we mwed down there
and he had a home for us dcwn in Sesser, Illinois.
Q:
Nav, how many years was he a coal miner?
A: Pardon me--it was close to Sesser, Illinois but it was a little town,
ma1 ler than Sesser, called Royalton.
Q:
These are all new, These probably are nat existing today.
A: Sesser is still on the imp, and I think Royalton i a , too.
Q: That is interesting. Now, how long was your father a coal miner?
A: All his life.
Q: So you first experienced your education in Royalton?
A: Yea, in Royalton.
9: Of course you didn't speak English when you cane here, so what was
yrrur early childhood like?
A: Boy, it was rough.
Q: Can you give me an average day in your life?
A: We'd @ to the classroan and get it over with arrd run like hell to go
hame. Because they m l d really pick on a couple of--there was both me
and my brother Joe.
Q: They wuld just make fun of you because of your nane?
A:
Yes.
Q:
Because you couldn't speak English?
A: Well, yes, lcrut down there I had what we called Uncle Frank, He was
just Mom's cousin and he was wmking dcm there, too. Held been in this
country quite a few years and he w e probably the only one that could
speak a few words.
Dad never did learn to speak English. But there
was Uncle .Frank, Uncle Louis, and Uncle John, so really we weren't too
lonesane-they had fanilies, too. After w got hum everything was okay,
but as long as w wre on the road and in school it was a rough life.
Q: k r e there a lot of Italians in that area?
A: I don't remdxr, but there were a few of than.
Attilio V e q s
3
Those that were there, I take it, w r e mostly related; your father
and his brothers.
Q:
A: Yes, his brother-in-law,
Q:
The school that you attended, was it a public school?
A: Yes, it was a public achool. Sesser was mall but then this was a
little bit further out in the country mere the foreigners lived. It was
a little one-roan schoolhouse.
Q: I'm intrigued by what you said, Where the foreigners livedv1. You
mean they couldn't byy a house in t m ?
A: Oh no. If I ranerrJ3er it was mostly a11 carpany owned houses anyway.
You bought groceries at their grocery atore and you lived in their house
and I imagine they paid you what they vrwnted.
Q: And there MSI
nothing you could do about it.
A: Nothing you could do about it.
you*
You just had to take Hihat they gave
Mat about the church at that time? Wa~l there a Catholic Ghurch in
that area?
Q:
A: No, there was no Catholic Church in Rnyalton. I think mostly that
southern part is either Wthodist or Baptist. Nbm used to catch a train
because h n was awful religious. Dad v#l;snlt but Mom was. I think she
used to catch a train and go to Sesser and I think it used to take her
all day to gp there. It w s a hardship on her, too, because she couldn't
read or talk or nothing.
Q: So W e n she wnt if was just for the benefit of going. Everything
was spoken in English.
A: That was life and death t o her. To miss Mass was sanething.
There probably weren't too mmy Italians in southern Illinois, *re
there?
Q:
A: No, there wasn't.
Q: Men did you first m e to Springfield?
A: In Royalton, Illinois the mine blew up, and I don't rmmber whether
it killed twenty or thirty miners. My Bid vuasn1t at that shift h
t Uncle
Louis was, and w wrenlt too far fran the coal mine where the conpan.
houses wre. So after the mine blowed up it took so long to get the mine
back in order that-cur folks never had no money or anything--ao they
made wme connections. I think this was only about rsix or seven months
after WImved down here. After the mine bl&
up sane of them got jobs
in Springfield. So w nuved back to Springfield. Of course PE never did
live in Springfield-% were only here t
w days.
Attilio Vespa
Q: W n you first lended.
A:
Whsn we landed fran New York.
W n you returned to Springfield, where wre p u situated? Mere was
your house?
Q:
The first place that I rgnember that vw lived in--tw fmilies, Uncle
Louis and Aunt Anne and her t~lodaughters, me and Joe a& my Dad and
mother-lived in a three roan house, tw fanilies. You'll be surprised
which buae it was. It's that little three-rocm house that is the Skyrocket
today. The Skyrocket Tavern. It used to be a three-roan house and
that's the first house HR lived a t .
A:
Q: That's out there on the corner of Sanganon and Peoria Road,
Yes. I think if yau still look right, you can still see the roof.
It I s just a little three-roan house that used to be there. 'Puw, families
lived in a threeroan house with no basanent.
A:
So then your father and your uncle were coal miners. Mere w r e they
mining at that t h , at Dweroe?
Q:
A: Almost at Deveroe. Peabody No. 59, there at New Jones.
Q: M a that a predominantly Italian neighborhood over there?
A:
No, it was predminantly a Polish neighborhood and Hunks--Lithuanians.
It still is, I think, isn't it?
Q.
Yes, A lot of Polish wer there.
A:
It was at that time too.
So, when your rmther had t o go to the store, slme perhaps had to go
quite a distance to an Italian neighborhood store?
Q:
No. In those days there HKia no such thing as ping to the store. It
was all delivered and our second or third cousin, with Dad and John
Vespa, used to have a grocery store on 15th and Washington.
A:
John Vespa. He m e Dad's second or third cousin. I was talking to
Vince, o m of the bays, I met him in Peoria today. He says, "Are you
related to this guy?" And he says "Till, ~ l l edon't go anymore. Yeah, I'm
If you go along secorrd or third cousin, it just
related to that guy.'
doesntt mrk anymore, you see?
A:
But he used to deliver quite a bit in those days. men there was another
and naw he's got a--he's dead, now--but his kids got a store on Crush
Street in Peoria, The guy's nam was John Cardinal. He had a grocery
there which was only about three or four blocka fran Sangamon Avenue to
Eleventh, In the group of kildiqp there he had a little grocery store,
At tilio Vespa
5
John Cardinal. He originally was fran Sanganon Aveune where all those
Italians axe on Sangarnn Avenue; where Bill Ciotti and than live at. But
that's Were John Cardinal was originally fran.
Q:
So,
for everybody it was just convenient to go over there?
A: Cbmenient to gp there. It was just about three or four blocks.
Those people didn't buy l i b they do today. They'd lmt ten pounds of
sugar and it'd last them a month. They'd buy bread and a piece of mat
and that was about it
.
Wlat about the Ctmrch then? Could your mother find a church to go to
in Springfield?
Q:
A:
Yes. hb wnt to St. Joseph's.
Q: There wsntt an Italian-speaking priest there, was there?
A: oh, no.
:
So
you had t o learn English,
Yes. Of course, in your church it didn't mike any difference because
the Mass waer said in Latin and it was just a matter of getting used to
the other people. That was all there was to it.
A:
Q: Lb you remmbr a Presbyterian minister caning around? I lmaw that
in 1922 to 1936 there was a Preswterian minister brought in by the
Washington Street mission for the sake of the Italians, because he could
speak Italian with than.
A: No, I don't remember that. Of caurse, when we lived there, that's
when they b i l t that Clmentine m c h , aver there on Eleventh Street,
But at the time we lived on the corner house of Elizabeth and Griffith.
Q: That'a Clanentine Presbyterian h c h ?
A: Right, I remenber them building that church and the preacher going
around and trying to convert people. He probably could have converted me
and Joe because w didn't kncw that rmch about it. Wxt Man had too mch
history behind her.
While wm are on the subject of church, Nhmts second cousin is a Mansignor,
of all places, at the old St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York, He ia the
pastor there. There's quite a history khind him b
t he usually canes
down about once a year and visits me and Jennry. His nanre is Father
Nicola Maraci but vm call him Father Nick. He's just an ordinary man,
he's a very wonderful person, He was telling us about Connie and this
new generation caning up--he wuld be classed in my generation because
he's about my age. But this is the only generation that our family
&esmtt have a religious person in the Catholic religion. This generation.
I t ' 8 been there for centuries. We've alwap had a priest in mr--not in
the Vespalsbut mostly in the Rossettitsand the Frasco's. The Frasco's
are related to us.
Attilio Vespa
6
You know Tony Frasco, Billy Cellinilsgrandpa? He live on Black Avenue.
That Prasco is my first cousin on my father's side. My Dad's sister
married a Frasco. 'Zhen, my mother was also a cousin to Mrs. fiasco, the
one that died in Talluca. This is his second wife and so right there the
relation is as thick as you can get them. There's always been s priest.
Nbntsuncle was haad of that big abbey--1Vbndacassino. hly mother's uncle
was head wnk of that. I rmmber b n talking about the big d i m n d ring
he wre, like the Pope. They used to kiss the ring and so on, and he was
big, high authority. Then it went back even further than that. This new
generation is the first o m that broke the cycle.
I knw that for the large population of Italians here in Springfield,
it's surprising to find that there was never an Italian priest brought in
h you know of any Italian priest being brought in?
for any festivals. J
Q:
A: No, never. There was a lot of then that could speak Italian but they
weren't Italian. They could speak Italian and I knaw that hkm used to
have her confession heard in Italian.
Q: What church was that at?
A: I believe it was St. Peter's on Sixth. There =re a lot of Italians
around Miller and Carpenter; that area,
Q: I know that S t . Vincent de Paul was for the Lithuanians, and the
Saminary had many G e m speaking proferssorrs that gave sermons in German
for the German speaking Springfieldians, but I have yet to find m y that
would speak for the Italians.
A: I believe they used to have one, and I don't rananber which church it
was. Man, Aunt Lidia who is dead naw, Mrs. Antonacci, and quite a few
others mid p0 to this one. Wlt he muld let then know that he was
caning to Springfield on mch an such a day. They would go down there
and go to confession. But they never did have one permanently here.
Q: To mve off of the churches n w , do you ever remember an Italian
consulate being here in Springfield?
A: Yes.
Q:
Ib you remeraber any of the men in it?
A:
The only one that I ranember, his naae was Picco.
Q: John Picco?
A: I believe it was John Picco. I was just a kid at the time, probably
back in 1918, 1921, or 1922; back in there. I remer&er #ping up there
with Dad and Man, for what I don't ramrber,
h you recall where this consulate was?
Q: J
A: Yes, it was on Sixth Street on the east side betwen Capitol and
Monroe. It was right across fran the Island Hotel,
7
Attilio Vespa
Q: Oh, right Where ShadidlsBook Mart is n&
A: Yes. -place
in there on the second floor, I remenJser,
Q: Do you know what the official duties of the Consulate wre?
A: No, I dontt r d r that. I was so young, yau Imow.
Q:
I believe Mr. Picco met a violent death, didn't he?
A: Did he? I don't reaar33er that.
Q:
I believe he was murdered.
A: He might have been. You knw itt$ a coincidence, his son is in
Springfield today and he's with the Gerber Baby Foods, I think he's one
of their representatives and his name is Picco. Wwhether it's his son
b
t he mst be around 40 or 45. It
or his grandson, I don't r-r,
rmst be his son. I see him in the store every so often,
Back in the 1920's and even back in 1919, Springfield suffered through
Prohibition. mere are several reasons why Springfield suffered Prohibition
earlier. One reason was because there =re coal miners here and the
Constitution said-+n
the Amendrent passed--said coal mines w r e off
limits to liquor, Hhat do you r a m b r of the Prohibition Era here in
Springfield?
Q:
A: You m a n about the law? About that law I do not rerrember.
Q: I mean as far as the Italians are concerned. Did they look upon it
as sanething that was incqrehensible or did they look upon it as perhaps
a money-making propodtion or what?
A: That's what I was going t o say? It didn't bother our fanily because
my h d was not interested in making money fran liqyor. He was a coal
miner and he accepted it. Now, he made his wine all the time during
Prohibition and nobody ever bothered him. I believe once w were checked
because w t dbought--they found aut that we'd always bought sugar by the
hundred pounds in those days because you could get it cheaper and it
would last you--&
mybe at that time he might have bought more than
that. But my Dad never used any sugar in his wine, it was natural
fermentation just like he m d e it in the old country. But they wanted to
knw why we bought that hundred pounds of sugar. We proved, throug;h the
grocery store, that we always bought sugar by the hundred pounds so they
left us alone. Eht I don1t knaw, My Dad wasntt no drinker but he still
made his hundred gallons of wine, just for his friends.
Q: I don't think the h r i c a m are right mmy t b s in thinking that
because the Europeans enjoy wine, that they look upon it as drinking.
Would you agree with me when I say that the Italians ususally kept wine
on the table and they muld have that as v a might drink water-not gulp
it d m , b
t have it with a meal?
Attilio Vespa
8
A: Yes.
Q: Do you think that the Italians muld drink to be social or just drink
to have ~lmthingto drink?
A: matts it. In the first place, that kind of wine that our folks made
was not the kind of wine that you have today. We knw that anytime you
put sugar in wine, you form alcohol and you end up with a bad headache.
But if you make wine with natural femntation, you can drink all the
still wake up the next morning with a clear head.
wine you want
Q: That's what
HR
call the Italian red wine.
That's right, and thatts what w wuld make. We cane fran the muntain
country wer in Italy. The caves where they kept their wines--this is
high up in the Alps--and the wine was down in the valley. I'm talking
about this little accident here and 1'11 tell you a funny thing about my
Dad. Now, these caves faced the north side and they said that the north
wind blawing into these caves or the places where they kept their wines,
made perfect wine. Now, if the south wind hit it, it would spoil. So vie
lived uver on North G r a d and the house faced north. He had a little
wine cellar down in the northeast corner of the building and he had one
of the c m n t blocks taken out of the north side so that north wind could
cane in and blow over his wine. (laughter) That's the honest truth!
And w wmld freeze to death with that cold wind coming underneath the
living rocm. lhere was just a little porch to protect us and there was a
little wire on it so the hqs and things wuldnlt cane in. But that darn
hole was there a11 the the and w l d freeze to death. Wxt he didnlt
care. That's what mde perfect wine; that north wind!
A:
Q: Do you feel that the Italians suffered a stigmatian of being gangsters
during that era?
A: No, not our class of Italiam.
Q: Not locally, then.
A: No, not locally, I don't think v e did. I was going to say, he was
not a drinking man. But he mde his hundred gallons and then on top of
that, he had a little bitty old still that he mde his little White Wle
with. My Dad didn't like White Mule but he'd make it for his friends.
Because what was he going to do if his friend care over to the table and
he wanted sane hard licpor and he didn't have it? He had mre feeling
for them than he did for a t was good for him. He had to please hie
friends, he had to be friendly.
Q: But you never, during that era, suffered at any time, fran anybody
calling you a gangster because you were an Italian?
A: No, I don't think they did. Of course, that
was inqy teenage days.
Q: So perhaps marry of your friends =re Italian, then?
Attilio Vespa
A:
9
Yes, they were.
Q: You didn't get out into the neighborhoods to feel sane of this?
A: No. At that time HR lived in Scarne. Then we lived on North Grand
and of course there =re a lot of Italians. The Favro's, the Tanalaras,
the DiGiralma, the Smegraseis, and your folks, too. So really it was
pretty mu@ to C ~ I Ed w n there and threaten us with anything. To call
you a dirty dago or sanething like that, there was plenty of urs there to
take care of than, see?
Q: There's strength in nurbrs, right? Mat about later when Wssolini
caane into p w r in, say 1923. Did the Italians here in Springfield look
upon Wssolini as a savior of Italy?
A: No, q y folks didn't, no, They didn't believe in it. One of our
relations, lVlunls cousin, was a high ranking officer In lbUssolini'a party.
I know at the time that a few of the Italians went back to visit. These
people tried to convert them into Facian and they refused. I knaw they
forced castor oil down thm-that was one of the big punishmnts. They'd
give you a big glass of castor oil and of course, you know what happened
after that.
Q:
If you didn't like Facian, you got castor oil.
A:
Yea, Wlt I kncmmy Dad always wanted to go back to Italy lmt he
He didntt 1ike his ways.
didn' t care that rmch about 1VLzssolini
.
Do you r
any mrrvies being b r w t in by the theatres to shaw
the popularity of Mxssolini in Italy?
Q:
A: No.
Perhaps because there wsn't enough strength in Springfield for him
to have filrns brought in.
Q:
Dad served in the Italian Anny when he was young. Before n'y Dad
a coal miner in America--he was a professional coal miner--he also
worked in the coal mines in Germany.
A:
ma
h$7
Q: A lot of the Italians went to Luxm&ourg, Germarry rather than caning
to hepica. Ilo you believe--and I've heard this theory proposed--that it
was to gain passports frm another country besides Italy, so one could
crme to hrica and not have the stiptation of being Italian lxlt being
German, Eklgian, or French?
A: It probably was that, txlt the way that Dad told me was he couldn't make
enough mney in Italy to get a paesport
So he had t o go to Gemmy where
they paid him fair wages for the wrk that was done. In fact, he aays, the
conditions wre better and he w i h e d he w l d have stayed in Gemmy, The
conditions =re a lot better in Gemmy than they were in the United States,
.
End Of Side m e , Tape 13ne
Q: Italians accepted the mines here, though,
A: Well, there was no other way. Of course it didn't happen to him, trut
my Dad talked about a lot of slavery going on. To hold your job you had
to pay this guy. In those days they used to load tw or three cars, arad
rmch for each car that you loaded dam in the coal
they got paid
mines. You had to pxt one check on there for the guy that sponsors you,
whether it was one every day or one every wek. I heard nry Dad talk
about that. Like I say, it didn't happen to him.
Q: When the unions started in the mines, did the Italians have a preference
for the United Mine Workers or the Progressives or what?
A: Well, that was really later on. That's what drove me mt of the coal
mines--the Progressives and the United Mine Workers. J3ut at one time it
was just the United Mine Workers. It was around 1929 or 1930, just
arourrd the big crash. The Progressives began because it was one-man rule
all the time and votes didn't mean anything; it was dead locals that wre
voting. TkBe local miners didn't--itls the same thing with this Tony
Boyle. How strong the United Mine Workers %re--don't get me wrong, they
did twnders for the wrkers. They braught than out of no place--but John
L. LRWisl rule wnt out of hand. By the m y , I used to go wer to Lawrence
Street where the old hamstead was and I used to cut grass for him when I
was a kid, for his mther. But my Dad had been dead ten or twelve years
and he still got the Progressive paper, They used to have a little paper
that they sent out. % sent it back and they still sent it. Now, they
used to use that; the dead locals and people that wre dead, they used to
use them for votes, They were still on the record. kgardless of whether
they m a dead or alive, they voted for John L. Lewis. (laughter)
Q: The Italiana then, couldn't do anything because of the mine unions.
They just wrked in the mines.
That's right, They just worked in the mines and they had no representatives
and they just took orders,
A:
Q: Eveqbxly was that way.
A : Right. Everybody was that way. Wlt Dad was a strong union man.
1'11 give you an estimate--about back in 1928 or 1929 I wrked in the
coal minea.
Q:
How many years did you w r k in the coal mines?
Six years, And I mrked in old Klorrdike--thatlsway aut on Mbash.
I used to drive ony car to wrk. hb and my Ilad and Joe Pasquale, Ralph
A:
Cardone and Nick Al-er
worked at Klondike Mine, and I mrked on the
first cut machine that wer came into this territory. I worked there
because I had a strorg back arad no brains. I did all the loading. We
worked in gang w r k and this was just a test. They were trying out this
ctuckbill method of cutting coal because everything at that time was shot
in the solid and this was sanething new. So we got all the cars we
wanted to load and w mrked three in a gang. I ahell in the coal, and a
guy by the naris of John Cavanaugh frm Auburn ran the duckbill. Uncle
At t il io Vespa
11
John, vho livers in micago m, drove the holes. I loaded all the coal
that was shot the night before, by another ahift. So those other miners
were on turns, and sanetimes they got three cars a day, and sanetimes
they g ~ tt
w cars a day, and someths they got four. It was howmch
coal they could hoist. But we got all the cars we wanted. I would load
20 and 25 cars a day. Of course, that was to be split up with three
guys, but that would still give you about seven or eight cars a day. You
see, w wre making all the money. I would even have to put side cars on
it, build the coal up so that you could get more coal in it. But I used
to just fill it over the rim and I wouldn't take time to mild those
sides on it with lunps of coal.
Wlt anyway, they all got together secretly; my Dad didn't wen tell rre.
They had a meeting and they wanted to knw why ve, w r e getting all these
cars--us three guys--and the other guys wouldnlt, The canparry told them
that it was nothing but a test and they'd just have to bear until the
thing settled out itself. One morning WE wnt to wrk, all five of us in
the s m car, and not a word was said to me. I drove over there and
changed my clothes to the pit clothes. I looked over there and q y Dad's
not there-he was wrking in another section of the mine anyway and w
don't see anybody. There were twelve of us, because there w r e four
gangs on the day shift and four gangs on the night shift. There were
just us twelve and the rest of them had all disappeared. hk looked over
there and they w r e on the other side o f the tracks, they're on strike.
(laughter) They donlt say anything to me or Uncle John either. They're
over there on a wildcat strike and 1'11 never forget it. John L. Lewis
happened to be in tawn that day, so they called him right away down to
the old Klondike Mine. He came over there and he talked to us and he
told them to go back to work. But a lot of them were raising cain because
thirs was going to thrw too marry people out of work. If three guys can
load twenty cars, just imagine vhat it's going to do to the rest of them.
Half of them wuld be out of wrk. I'll never forget old John L. Lewis
told them, "This is progress, this duckbill. You can't stop progress.
Go back to your job and forget it." And they did.
Q: For a while.
A: For a while, yes.
Q: Earlier you mentioned sanething about a newspaper. hkybe you'd like
to bring that up at this time. Do you remmbr there ever being a newspaper
for the Italians here in Springfield?
A: I do not.
Q: Saneone told me it was called La Nostra Terra.
A: It might have been h
t as I say, my Dad could read it but he couldn't
write. I ranember him having a bunch of old books that he'd read about a
dozen times. I think he used to lmaw thanmore by memory that he did by
reading them. Held just go through them just for mnething to read.
Q: What about the war? You were involved in the Second World War, were
you not?
Attilio Vespa
12
A: I was in the Second World War.
Q: Were you in Italy?
A:
No.
m-
I was landed in Liverpool and
WE
went over with Patton's Third
Q: The reason I ask is I wondered if you had been used in Italy, because
of your knowledge of Italians.
A: mere's a story behind that. All through France there was a Captain
Martini that was trying to get me. He offered me a rating as a warrant
officer to go over to Italy in a rear echelon deal, and he said, 'You1l1
live like a king. Even with the sergeant stripes that you have, you'll
be a big wheel over there." And he says, "1 think I can get you a warrant
officer job." And I kept telling him that this war is going to be over
and I don't want to be here, I want to go back hane. But about every
fifteen days, here canes Captain hrt ini and he w l d ask me again. He
never would give up.
Q:
You could have been an interpreter.
A: 'Ihatlswhat he wanted me for. He wanted me to be an interpreter. He
says, "You'll have an office. You'll live like a king. You'll really be
big stuff." And I said, "No. I still want to gokwme.ll (laughter) I
said, "This war is not going to last." hihat I was really afraid of was
that the war was going to be aver and then I w u l d be stuck over in Italy
w or three years as a warrant officer and an interpreter.
for about t
That way I could be m y fran Springfield.
Q: You were with Patton, though?
A: I was with Patton.
Q:
Did yau ever see the blood-and-guts man?
A: Yes, I've seen him twice, Once in Carmercy, France and another time
in lnurarbourg during the Bulge. I didn't see too rmch of him in Luxdwurg
but I ranaber hearing his horn--he had those air horns goin$--and I lmew
he was there. I had the kitchen set up in a fire house arad an officer
caae in asking if I had arxy coffee and I said, "Yes, sir. It ' s right
over on the range." And, I said, nTherelssane cheese and bread aver
there if you want to help yourself .I1 And he said, "1' 11 be glad to.'' So
he did. He took himelf a cup of coffee, and this is while Patton was
outside in front of the firehouse. After this officer got through helping
himelf to the coffee and the cheese sandwich he walked out. The first
sergeant cane in and he said, "Do you know who in the hell that was?"
And I said, "No, he didn't tell me." And he said, nThat was Eisenhower."
And I said, 'Well, he should have told me, Haw the heck you ping to
h a w mybody on that front line?" J3ut he was up there during the Bulge
battle, right in my kitchen.
Q: W s that Eisenhower or Patton?
Attilio Vespa
13
That was Eisenhcmr. Patton was outside in his Jeep with his airhorn.
Eisenhwr had a canrrtnd car out there, no insignia, no nothing on it.
The only way I recognized him as an officer was that he had an officer's
coat on. If you w r e up on the front line at any time, the only officer
that had an insignia--it wasn't like you see in the mnries. The only one
was probably a secorrd lieutenant or mybe sametimes a captain had one or
two strips on their helmt. Wxt outside of that they had no insignia or
nothing to identify thm as to who they were,
A:
Q: Was that in case they're taken as a primmer?
A: Yes. Well, naturally if they're taken in as prisoners, But arryone
would rather fire at an officer anyday than at just an ordinary soldier,
you h a w . hk were told never to take any SS troopers. Of course, you
cmldnlt take than alive anyway, they'd rather die. Even if you did take
than alive, they'd find sum way of killing you--life didn't mean anything
to than. An officer to than meant a medal.
Q: M h a did you yourself start your store here in Springfield?
A: Back in 1938,
Q: &fore the war. Did you cater matly to Italians?
A: No, there weren't too m q y Italians there, really. After I did
becam a little bit stronger--we w r e talking about it today; the first
day I opened up the store over there. It was a 25 by 40 foot hilding.
Q: Perhaps for the record we should state that the nane of your store is
VespatsSupermarket. And what's the address of it?
At that time it waa 2240 but then they doubled all the lots and today
the rnarket is 2276, on North Grand Avenue,
A:
:
Wxt yau didnl t cater to mostly Italians, then?
A: No, there wrentt that mny Italians then. The first day I sold t
w
loaves of bread. We were talking about it today. I was in Peoria on
business and I saw Bane grocery men over there and we were talking about
it. That location he had was about the s m e location I had--the houses
=re here arrd there. No Italians bought the bread, either,
Q: Did you ever think that mybe during the war that your Italian nane
on the door mi@t have helped out or might have brought scm business in?
A: No, I didn't w e it that way. I wamlt an Italian neighborhood to
start with. The Italians were d m in Scarne and that was quite a few
blocks m y , No, I appreciate the few Italians that w r e there but it
vasnlt that praninent. In fact, it was mstly all Methodists around
where the store was. The Methodist Church was just dcwn a block m y .
Q: I've heard sane stories about the Methodist m
c
h there. When you
were first in Scarne you already mentioned many of the Italian families
that lived araund there. Were they discriminated against in any way by
scme of the neighborhood people there?
Attilio Vespa
14
A: Yes. A t that t h about 1920 or 1922, they were building the Wesley
hQthodist Uurch. They had a wnderful guy by the name of Beggs there
for a preacher, so you can't condemn the preacher for the other people in
the parish. That was a meeting place for the Ku Klux Klan, Len h l l
was Governor at that time, and he was fran southern I1 linois. I imagine
he was a Ku Klux K l a n m h h e l f because he used to review the Ku ~ i u x .
They wed to have their metings in the old State Police Garage which is
behind-and I think it's still there--behind the present City Police
place, right in the alley. It's tawards Sixth Street. It used to be the
State Police Garage in that alley behind the City Police station. At
that time there wasn't any police station there.
Q: J3ut the Italians in that neighborhod of Grandview, did the suffer
any property dsmage?
A: The didnft suffer any property dEmage h
t they were jeered at, ycn~
knw.
Q: Not only because they w r e Italians but because they #re Catholics.
A: Yes, they =re Catholics, they =re Italians, and they were foreigners.
That wrd foreigner was a big wrd in those days. Anybody that was a
foreigner was not an hrican, regardless. You suffered with the growing
pains, I imagine. But I started the business--and thi~w e , of course a
couple of years later.
End of Side %o, Tape One