1. business and industrial

*PUNK ROCK*
Lee:
Okay everyone this is Lee Stranahan and welcome to another session. The one and only
Johnny B. Truant is here, right Johnny?
Johnny:
I am the one and only.
Lee:
There you go, And you are here, right?
Johnny:
Yes, I am present I am one and only and I will raise my hand - I am here. There you go.
Lee:
Okay. So one of the things Johnny and I talked about when we were developing this
course was making sure that we gave people who are taking that would be you dear
listener - we want to make sure we gave you the real dope - in other words, what worked
for us and and not to hold anything back as personal or idiosyncratic as it might be
because if you know JB and I aren't a big believer of a check by number system that you
can follow and that will work for everybody. We do kind of have an idea was has worked
for us and what is influential for us and that's why today's session is about what you can
learn using entrepreneur person trying to create a better life what you can learn from
punk rock. The reason we are doing this is because punk rock has been a big influence a big influence - on both JT and i and has brought us together for reasons that we
mention we talk about the picture of me and Johnny Rotten and how that is what made JT
go "Hey, look at that". Yeah, he is not another jackass. maybe I am interested in doing
something with this guy. Yeah.
We will talk about it. Let's talk about what you can learn - this is not about you changing
musical taste - this is about what you can learn and really what we learned and what we
sort of gleamed out of punk rock. So let me just start with a little quick intro here and we
will get into it. This is the following little bit is all ripped off from Wikapedia - but in
Wikapedia it is all creative comments therefore I can rip it off. So let's just talk about this
is me reading from punk rock is a rock music genre that developed between 1974 and
1976 in the United States, UK and Australia. It created hard-edged music, fast, typically
with short songs, stripped-down instrumentation, and often political, anti-establishment
lyrics. Punk embraces a DIY ethic; many bands self-produced recordings and distributing
them through informal channels. In December, 1976, an English fanzine published a now
famous illustration of 3 guitar chords and it captioned it - this a chord - this another
chord - this is a third - now form a band. An associated punk subculture emerged,
expressing itself through youthful rebellion and characterized by displays of distinctive
styles of clothing and adornment. Musicians identified and inspired by punk also pursued
a broad range of other variations giving rise to post punk and the alternative rock
movement. That is my little capsule summary of punk.
Now, I am going to talk about, in the interest of doing a tell you what we are going to tell
you tell you then tell you what we told you presentation I will just tell you some of the
hooks of what I am going to talk about there that will definitely relate to starting an
entrepreneurial business today - especially the kind that Johnny and I started and like
starting - and I guess if someone were to ask for suggestions we would tell you to start
that kind of business. Here is the hooks I want you to think about. Number one - the
idea that you can just form a band - you don't need to know everything - 3 chords is
enough - go start a band - that's one idea. Another idea - strip down - keep it simple,
right? Third idea - do it yourself. That is a really important part of the broadcast that
really influenced me - is the idea that you can do everything from starting the band,
promoting the band, to driving the van - everything yourself. It is the same way in the
businesses I've started. Fourth idea that i want to talk about a little bit is rebellion and
community - which are two seemingly contradictory concepts and anti-authoritarian
culture but is also a community but somehow those two ideas are synthesized in the punk
movement . The fifth idea I want to talk about is don't be a poser which is also a big heel
on punk. That is sort of the agenda - Johnny any notes so far so because I talked awhile
and need some water.
Johnny:
Look at you being all organized and shit. I think that we're simultaneously
demonstrating the ability be sort of punk rock in your business while also flying in the
face of punk tradition by saying Fuck You - we are going to learn some chords above and
beyond. I think this is really fantastic too because I have gotten a little initial feedback
and we described this as a sort of punk rock business course and some arenas and so
forth and people are wow - they are kind of interested - wow, that sounds interesting.
What does punk rock have to do with business? You can get just from a initial synopsis
about what it does but for me the heart of it is the DIY aspect People think i think because
when we get in our heads the notion of business we think of large business. If we don't
think of large business, if we think of smaller entrepreneurs who go out of our way to say
okay well there are many people doing it on their own...we think they have a structured
business plan, and have an accountant, and keep their books orderly, and maybe they
have some sort of I hate to use the word formula they have a system - they have
something they're doing and they wouldn't dare dream starting out without knowing all
the pieces of the puzzle. What I have found is a metaphor that I keep using and I have
used a bunch in a jam sessions with Charlie Gilkey cause we talk about this a lot - is the
notion of sort of learning to fly the plane once it's up which is right back to what you said
about learning 3 chords and go start a band. It is not that you have to hone and hone and
hone and become an excellent musician first - like sometimes it's just the will and
attitude is enough, and that's really, really applicable to the way I operate business.
Lee:
Well, also, there is a good quote in the wikapedia article from Tom... from the Ramones
and when he was talking about was he said the music that started in the 60's was good he said then what happened in the early 70's you got a guitarist, and I'm paraphrasing,
you got guitarists who weren't Jimmy Hendrix - they weren't genius guitarists but they
were just noodling and be Jimmy Hendrix and you end up with these big overwrought
things. Also, the music business became a big business that became a big industry with
ALRP people signing contracts and all this stuff. And punk was really an answer to that
and I know people who like to say they started business they think okay I need to get an
SBA loan and or the other classic example is they go out and get a business license and
they run out and they get their DBA and put their little ad in the paper and all that stuff
and then they don't do any business.
They don't have a customer - they don't have
anything and they get some cards printed, too, because that's a good idea - and they
don't have a business. Now I am not even judging because I've been through that twenty
years ago. I went through some of that stuff and my first wife wanted to start a basket
business - she went out to get a DBA and cards and she never made a single gift basket.
So the punk effort is pretty straight forward - write a song, keep it simple, if you are a
good soloist great if you’re not you don't need a 10 minute guitar solo. Get an audience go out and start playing for people. Make a recording put it on cassette - give it to
people. You don't need a record label, you don't need a recording studio. You just need
to get going with things. That is a lot of what the DIY ethic is now specifically this is
where the new world of online businesses is so great because the other thing that you
used to need is a location - an actual physical location to start things. Did I ever tell you
about my 1.99 restaurant idea, Johnny.
Johnny:
No, but I am fascinated knock yourself out - let's hear it.
Lee:
This is just an example to me of how you can completely subvert the dominant paradigm in
things so I had an idea on how to start a restaurant on how to start a restaurant for a 1.99.
Johnny:
Is this starting the restaurant for 1.99 or starting a restaurant that is selling 1.99 items?
Lee:
No, starting a whole restaurant for a 1.99. Starting a successful restaurant for one dollar and
ninety nine cents. Do you want to hear it?
Johnny:
I do. I'm fascinated. It's a great hook.
Lee:
Okay, so here is what the idea is. I've worked in restaurants - I've cooked, and did restaurant
management, waitered and stuff like that and so i always think about restaurants is a is a
business like - Oh I might want to get into that someday. Here is what most people do - they
go out and say okay let me find the location and will spend weeks scouting a location because
the locations are really in important in restaurants. They might find a place they have to get a
loan they have to get leased stuff because they have to lease kitchens and you know of a walkin refrigerator and they get their whole marketing thing and they would spend tens of
thousands of dollars at the minimum - hundreds of thousand dollars usually and millions of
dollars potentially before they open the restaurant and then what they would do is they would
stand in the restaurants and pretend I've done this and spent gone through the whole process
of taken months or years - gotten loans now i open the restaurant and what do i do - i stand
there on a wednesday night and I stare out my window and i hope people walk in and i kind of
hope kind of pray and it's five thirty and one person has walked in and i'm thinking about the
waiters that I got on and thinking about the food and I'm like - oh my god just that crushing
weight of like what am i going to do. And that's the reality of the restaurant business.
How could you do this, make a successful restaurant for no money, and so my idea, any anyone
feel free to steal this one. This is an example of taking a physical business idea and applying
the DIY get down to it ethic. Here's what you do. Rather than start a restaurant - a physical
location because that what's gonna cost you be a lot of money so let's start by finding
customers, let's get customers first. so let's go to someplace like male chimp where you can
open - I use male chimp. What do you use for your mail list Johnny? I use female chimp. No, I
use aWeber. Okay, so you use aWeber and I use mail chimp. One of the reasons I like male
chimp is that you can start and account for free up to 500 people on your list for free and it's
forever. It's not like a 30 day trial - long as you get 499 in your list you don't pay any money
and you can mail to them for five times a month or something like that. It's pretty good. So I
use male chimp because it's free and I'm going to spend a dollar ninety nine and buy a .info
domain just because I need a domain and I couldn't splurge and get a .com domain.
Johnny:
Or you could splurge for the ten dollars...yeah.
Lee:
I could start a ten dollar restaurant but I don't want to do that. And here's what I'm going to do
I'm going to start to build a list and - I'm going to go to places where people are in my
community I live in New Mexico so fine people in Albuquerque and go to place where they like
food where you can find places where people like food that question I will go to the better
grocery stores like whole foods these are people who don't just eat food everyone eats food
that you want foodies people will actually like you know people like want to take cooking class
people who want to take more interested in stuff. This is my idea input at ads in craigslist you
know you post thanks in the grocery store you find meet ups or any thing you can do to reach
people for free in the old days you want people to sign up for your list and what you tell him is
ice started a secret restaurant I said do you like to wear going to have a virtual restaurant that
opens up periodically and I'll tell you what the minute you is in advance and tell you what the
prices are in advance it's going to be incredible food.
And you can sign up show up for it or not and so for instance in Albuquerque where I live there
are no Ethiopian restaurants just an example the nearest Ethiopian restaurant is in Denver and
my wife and I like Ethiopian food so if I was on this mailing list which I would probably sign up
for since it is free and I saw that they were going to have an Ethiopian night because it is
cheaper than going to Denver. And my wife sign up too and son would sign up too and there is
3 people and if it was twenty or twenty five bucks a person that is fine with me. So here what
the idea is by building up this list you're starting with a customer base - you are starting with
people - you are not sitting there in your restaurant hoping that people will want the food and
will show up. You want to start a restaurant that you are going to spring up occasionally.
Then you can switch what it is going to be - okay we are going to be doing an ethiopian night
in a month and a half. Where do you find the food the chef the location....I will tell you that
stuff is pretty easy. You find an Ethiopian chef - if I had to fly one in from LA - it wouldn't cost
me more than a couple hundred bucks. I guarantee you that I could find a really good ethiopian
chef. Another thing I could do is look on Amazon to look for people that have written ethopina
cook books or in the US. I'll bet you i could find one of the top ethopian chefs in the entire
country and fly them into alba no problem and I would work with them to set up the menu.
And I would ask what you would need for ingredients, we would figure that all out. for location
- we would need a place with a kitchen. There are many placres like that like churches your
local Ulitarian church probably has a pretty decent kitchen. They are probably not doing
anything on a Tuesday night there. There is other community groups, there's hotels, there is
restaurants that are just open for breakfast and lunch. They are not open for dinner. You
contact the restaurant and say Hey how much to book the place. But you start by getting the
customers and getting people who are really into what you want and then you give them events
- you give them these unique events every month. You now started a restaurant for a dollar 99
- you were paid in advance and know who is going to show up. You can even gauge interest Hey just tell me if you would show up for this. And if you get 3 people who want to show up for
Ethiopian night then yo know what? It won't be successful so don't book it. And then the next
thing you say okay we are going to do a grilled cheese sandwich night and if you get 100
people to sign up for it you know what - you learned something about your market. This
whole idea about how you don't need to go through this traditional structure of finding a
building, getting a lease, getting an SBA loan all this stuff and cut to what's important - there's
me and the customer. Then how can I hook up with them. How can I deliver something that
they would be interested in. This is something I do as a mental exercise. But I actually started
that list and got people signing up - I haven't done that yet. It's also the kind of thing where if I
started a restaurant would I be able to get the local newspaper the Albuquerque journal in my
case- to come out and do a story about me. I kinda doubt it - I mean they might do something
in the food section but if I started this restaurant do I think the Albuquerque journal or local TV
stations? Yes I do. Maybe not on the first one but once they figure out what you are doing, it's
so weird that they go Oh interesting. And you can see the same idea - now they are virtual
grocery and think about your farmers market. If you have a farmers market in your town it is a
virtual grocery store that shows up once a week. People go and buy stuff and then they leave.
There's way to cut in. So there's my - I am done talking for a second, Johnny.
Johnny:
I like how you to give me a flag at the end to let me know you're done. I want everyone to
realize what Lee has done here because if you weren't paying real close attention or if we aren't
conveying our information properly it is going to sound like Break the rules. That is what is
going to sound like. That isn't the message. The message is really more about questioning the
assumptions. Now what he is proposing here with the restaurant is here is a way of doing
something that you probably haven't thought of and that may be better than what the
traditional way of doing things is. So what this is about is it's about the mighty mighty boss
comes out and calls question the answers and punk is all about questioning - the traditional
way of putting this is Fuck Authority - but It truly is about questioning authority. It is about
saying we're not juts going to do what's common because it is common. We are not going to
follow a script that has bee laid out by our parents or boss or society. The message isn't don't
start a restaurant
the traditional way, the message isn't don't go get a business plan. The message is don't
consider that to be the only option.
We've given the example - I have given the example
before and I imagine Lee has too, I don't know whether we have done it so far because I can't
keep track. You know punk rock - the punk community is really funny because if you get
around with a bunch of punk rockers and they start debating about the philosophy about punk
- it is really pretty hilarious. Most be are dogmatic about what punk is so it's liek you start
realizing all the punk rockers have weird hair or piercings or tatoos or they wear band tour tshirts and they might not come out to admit this but if you are a dentist you are probably not
punk rock. It really is about doing what you want to do and what works for you rather than
follow someone else's script. Yes, it is probably pretty punk rock to be in this straight laced
white bred Utah mormon family and be into the Sex Pistols or whatever but it is equally punk
rock to be in a group of hardcore Minor threat fans who are like on heroin and they are crazy
degenerates or something like that or they are really anti-establishment And you can be like I
like Party in the USA. That is punk rock too because your group by default is going to pull you
in their direction and if you are willing to say I am going to try a different way then that's what
we are really saying. It's about questioning and looking at your motives for doing things and
seeing if their is an alternative that may be better.
Lee:
Well, Kurt Cobain talked about Freddy Mercury in a stool side note and not In
Discouraging Way, Freddie Mercury is consider kind of punk rock to a
group of people because he was so flamboyant and not worried about the
consequences of that. So that is you know and example. The punk band
example I always think of is Minute Man who didn't sound like
anybody else. While everybody else in punk rock, well mostly everyone, was
doing like three chord loud stuff. The minute man was a band that was doing
you know really weird base lines and didn't sound like anybody else. Everybody questions
something. The Minute Men were considered a punk band and not because they sounded like
any other band or look like any other band - they didn't really have a look. The point is not
start a restaurant the poing is the opposite - start a restaurant. If you love food and you want
to start a restaurant and start a restaurant If the way you want to do it is going through and get
a loan and get a location - if not I laid out one path.
You could do a million variance on that - you could do a vegetarian night and do a vegetarian
night once a week somewhere and build up from that bpoint. It's the same thing if you want to
start a band - it used to be if you want to start a band you had to make a demo tape, it had to
be polished, you have to have songs that are a certain length. You send that to the anrp police
and start playing locally and...blah, blah, blah. You go through this whole thing and hlopefully
a record company will sign you and hopefully give you a budget and hopefully they promote
you and hopefully you get a hit, hopefully you get some radio play. the whole punk thing was
just like - or Johnny and I start a band and we start playing gigs in our friends basement and or
any place else we can and we start going on tour and make tapes and we give them to people
and we don't ask permission - we're not waiting for the record company to sign us help us or
promote us. We will just do all of that ourselves. and this really gets to the heart of a lot of the
stuff we talk about in this course which is the idea that what you want to do is available to you
right now really. That if you're goal is to be on tour go get in your van and bring your guitar
and your amp and go on tour now. There's not things keeping you from doing it - don't let the
excuse - this is what I believe ultimately - people who go through the sba loan and the license
and they got to get this and that - ultimately they are afraid to start a restaurant or start a
band. They don't want to show up in front of a crowd who the crowd might not like them.
Okay, I mean he main point is really to question assumptions because this concept of you can
have what you want now - that may not be literally true. If you want a yacht, for instance, and
you really do want that yacht and you have sixteen cents in your bank account then you can not
go get that yacht. In many cases, the assumption is that you have to achieve a means to get an
end so if you want a restaurant you need a location, you need a business plan and all that - it's
one of the things you will see in the bonus interview that I did with Adam Baker Man vs Dad.
One thing that I caught him just assuming I had to back it up and point it out to him is he
describes how he was in debt really in debt and was trying to get out of debt and they were
trying to get out of debt. What they decided to do was to sell all their stuff and then go to
Australia. I kind of backed him up and said You do realize that most people - if their plan is to
progressively to reduce debt - don't think I am going to take a trip around the world. It's the
other way around but if you start operating with this mentality and questioning the assumption
that you have then you realize things are closer than you may believe and the only thing that
you are risking is that you may look kinda dumb or you may be doing something that other
people don't think makes a lot of sense. That is your biggest risk. You talked about at the
beginning that one of the punk rock things is the assumption that you need to learn how to
play an instrument first and sort of turn things around and say well no we are going to form a
band first and then learn to play the instrument as we go. So the assumption is if you are going
to be in a band you have to play an instrument well but really it's demonstrates how far this
goes - do you know the mighty mighty boss tones?
Johnny:
Of course.
Lee:
I had to go see these guys in concert to see this. There are 10 Mighty Mighty Bosstones up
there and I realize there is this one guy and his name is Ben Car - I had to look him up - and he
is just kinda dancing and I am kinda - What the fuck is that guy doing? He is not playing a
trumpet or he is not singing and he is not playing drums - kinda dancing around the stage and
not very well. I went home and looked and here in the cd jacket - Dicky Barrett vocals and all
these other people playing different instruments and I get to Ben Car and it says Bosstone.
That’s his job. Somebody did that - somebody said your job in the band is going to be to
dance. And that is such a ridiculous idea but it doesn’t mean you can’t do it - that’s the point.
It doesn’t mean you can’t do it and that is a successful band.
What’s interesting is that’s of unusual for that kind of band, sort of. In a lot of black music
now, for instance, they all have hip hop, for instance, they all have dance who are an intricate
part of the stage show. You know who I’m talking about.
Johnny:
Like Britney Spears or something, yeah.
Lee:
Yeah, but I am even talking about hip hop bands - even at a really low level where it might just
be an MC - that’s it - just one guy out there rapping. He might have a couple of people behind
him dancing. That’s what they do in their part of it like Public Enemy had the S1w’s who are
part of the show.
So, yeah, it’s an interesting thing like it expands the idea of - buy it makes the show better.
The reason they do that is that it makes the show better. If your focus is on the customer or
the focus is on the audience in this case and you’re like - what would make the show better for
them? People dancing around on the stage makes the show better for the audience. Is it
needed - is it necessary? No, but it’s cheaper than a laser light show, you know. There’s also
story about Sinead O’Conner when she started she was known because - basically she was bald.
The reason she did that because she said she couldn’t afford a wardrobe. Rather than - to get
a distinctive look - one thing people do is that they will go out and spend thousands of dollars
on clothes. She couldn’t do that so she suddenly shaved her head and got a distinctive look.
That was another one of those hooks that we talked about - the idea you get a distinctive look.
Now the way that it applies in business is - well, here’s the thing. Your appearance whether it’s
your physical appearance, your website, your writing - you are saying something about who you
are. Really, what you are doing too is you are sending up a signal - you are sending up a flare
to let people know something about you. If you see a guy with a mohawk - it’s a fairly safe
assumption that his favorite artist is not Justin Timberlake. You can probably guess that. Now,
again that becomes a choice, you know, like Johnny and I were talking about the film SLC punk.
The idea at a certain point does the way you dress the way you become - is it a uniform - or is
it you. Is it something you put on you know the same way you put on a uniform when you go
work at Dominoes pizza - you put on the Dominoes hat and Dominoes shirt so everyone knows
you work at Dominoes.
They gotta know you are a punk.
If you are shaving your head so everyone knows you are a punk and it’s just a uniform and
secretly you are listening to Justified then - and you know - by the way I do like Justin
Timberlake.
I like Justin Timberlake the same reason I like Prince. He reminds of Prince at his best - he
reminds me of Prince. That’s all I’m saying.
Johnny:
I am going to pretend that I didn’t hear that.
Okay, so anyway, if you are doing it just for your uniform then stop doing - quit it. Just quit it!
You’re not helping yourself. It’s the same thing - I think what happens is and this gets down to
the idea of authoritarianism and rebellion - punk rock is a antiauthoritarian movement that is
really critical of people who deviate from the standard that they have. You get called opposer
or something like. If your music isn’t a certain way or your dress isn’t a certain way a lot of
people will end up calling you an opposer - or a fake punk because of that. That’s the trick.
It’s a trick for business people too. We’re urging you to do two things and they are
contradictory in a way which is ignore the traditional advice which is one side of the coin and
the other side of the coin is focus on the customer. Be an individual but focus on other people.
I think that’s the reality for the life for an entrepreneur. You have to do both. You have to be
able - you have to have enough strength and conviction to choose your own path but in
choosing your own path you not really helping anybody or yourself even if you are not heavily
focused on the customer.
Johnny:
The other reason we wanted to include this section of all things - what you can learn from
punk rock. In a business course is because even if you don’t consider yourself to be really kind
of punk in any definition of it and even if you feel that what you are doing is already true to
what you want to do, and even if you feel that you are looking outside the box to find a
solutions, therefore, this is just sort of all academic to you. There are a lot of mindset issues
that go under this because punk rock is a rebellion against the establishment - sorta by
definition. But so is DIY entrepreneurism. Usually when people come into the field that we’re
in and you are trying to start your own thing or you are starting your own thing or you have
already in your past started your own thing because in some way you are rebelling against our
traditional way of doing things which is graduate college at 18, go to college for 4 years, maybe
get your MBA if you are in business or something then go to work for a company - work 8
hours a day although it’s really more like 9 hours a day because your lunch hour is in there too
and you have your commute so a huge chunk of your day - 5 days a week for 40 years. Then
you retire with a gold watch, at least, and that’s the way it used to be . So if you are starting
your own thing than in some way you are dissatisfied with that and you’re willing to - you’re
sort of willful about breaking out of that and saying in some ways - fuck authority. Fuck you I’m not going to do it that way. It reminds me of the Simpsons when Homer gets out of debt he quit his job and goes to work at the bowling alley and goes through and plays Burns head
like a bongo. It’s like screw you boss - that’s for employing me for 20 years. So you have
some balls if you are striking out on this path and you have to be prepared that there is
uncertainty that you are fucking the system. That there are not a lot of societal supports like if
you work - if you are around a lot of people in the traditional paradigm which is most of us
which most people are in the paradigm. You are not going to get a lot of support from them.
Some people are going to think you are stupid, some people will think you are crazy and I was
saying to Lee earlier I want to coin this phrase so if it becomes famous I get credit for it. It’s
called Johnny’s rule and that’s if you’re the first person to do something you’re going to look
stupid. It’s just the way it is. People are going to think that you are stupid and that can be sort
of a micro level thing that if you are in your group and you are the first person who says - I am
not going to work for the company - I’m going to start a lemonade business - then you are
going to look stupid to the people in that are within group. But if you also the band who says
i’m a punk band and I am going to have a Bosstone. The traditional examples are the Wright
Brothers who say we’re going to fly. People are going to think you’re stupid because it’s
fucking the system. If you’re Thomas Edison and I think he had like 10,000 failures with the
filament material before he got the right one - the light bulb. You say that dumb ass Edison
has failed like 9000 times and he continues to think he can light a house with electricity. Every
success story, every breakthrough, every first, has as its first chapters - that dumb ass. Like
this guy is so gonna fuck up. Now plenty of the people that try to do something new turn out if you want to be an objective about it - you want to make it to an objective thing - turn out to
be dumb asses okay that was a dumb idea or was an idea that didn’t work or was an idea that
was out of its time and so it failed but so is that true of the people who are vastly, vastly
successful and you sort of think well if I’d have that idea and if I’d have acted on it then I
would’ve gone with it. What about the pet rock - you think, what a stupid idea for a pet rock.
And you think, well I could’ve done that. If you aren’t the inventor of the pet rock and you had
that idea then you didn’t do it. That’s not a small thing. That’s saying I’m gonna look stupid
and I’m gonna try something stupid that people are going to think is stupid because I believe in
myself and I am willing to take this risk - and that is punk rock.
The most anti-authoritarian thing I could think to do at this moment is to point out that also
that the assumptions - if you are listening to this I assume you are interested in Internet
marketing and the third tribe idea and that whole thing. Those are the things that you have to
question too. I don’t know how else to put it but what happens to a lot of people is they go
along and they see other people successful and they go okay and they say I guess that’s what I
should do. That’s even true for you now listening to this, if you are listening to this - this is the
thing Johnny and I have tried to talk about - in all the marketing for this there is no system.
Johnny:
Yep.
Lee:
We’re even sort of telling you - ignore us a lot of the time. That’s because I think what
happens is a lot of people - they go along and they say okay - I want to do something - I don’t
know what to do and then see this sort of Copyblogger that that kinda thing and they think here’s the thing. If I say you don’t need a SBA loan then you don’t need this. I will tell you what
else you don’t need - you don’t need the Thesis theme, you don’t need an information
product, you don’t need a Google Ad words account, you don’t need to be doing Facebook ads.
I’m not saying don’t do any of those things. Look I use Thesis - I like it - I’m saying question
the assumption that you need it. I didn’t have one when I started, I didn’t start with it. I started
the business. Even any of the things of anybody listening to this might think like okay I need to
do this or that. If you are listening to this, there’s two possibilities. Number 1, you are already
successful and the reason you are listening to this is you’re trying to pick up a few little things
to make that will make you a little more successful - whatever success means to you. The other
possibility and the majority of people - you are not as successful as you want to be and you are
looking for a some way to push yourself over towards success. One of the ways to do that is to
stop trying to emulate all of the other stuff that you’re hearing. Again, it is very easy to look at
Brian Clark, Sonja or Johnny or Naomi or any of these people and go like, okay - what are they
doing. Okay, they have info products and they are doing this or that. You know, in a lot of
cases first off and I know it’s the case for Darren, a pro blogger, people assume - we’ve talked
about this a little bit - he doesn’t make most of his money selling information product to other
bloggers.
Johnny:
He does make it a true pro blogger even though.
Lee:
I will tell you, too. I don’t make most of my money selling other informational products to
other things. I do seminars for film makers. I make films, I get clients that hire me to do
videos that are political. I write stuff. That’s where most of my money comes from- it’s not
from this course. This is just part of it. The reason I mention that is because this part of my
business could go away and I’d still be eating. Johnny, it’s the same with you right? You make
most of your money through services, right?
Johnny:
Yeah, mainly from services. I mean that’s the catch 22 about the internet marketing
world. It’s almost like a pyramid scheme in a way and I don’t mean that in a derogatory way
that say that anybody that’s in marketing is a shit bag because I am and some of the people
that I like best are. What I’m saying is that there are quarters of the spectrum of this space that
sell information and make their money selling information on how to make money. You know
it’s like going to a stock broker and they make money either way and they make money by
pushing certain stocks. I want to go to a stock broker who made his money in the market. His
own stocks or her own stocks that were successful. That’s what I want. Yeah, you are
absolutely right. It can be a self perpetuating thing where If we all make our money from telling
other people how to make money by telling people how to make money - it’s an endless loop.
I’m going to make a bold statement here - I think that there’s one primary ingredient to
success as an entrepreneur in any field whether it be starting a two dollar business, or starting
an internet business, or deciding you are going to custom tailor clothes on your own or
something. The number one ingredient that you need to get off to any sort of off the beaten
track is balls. That’s what it boils down to - you need to be able to say - things may go wrong
- there’s nobody who’s going to be able hold my hand through anything - there’s going to be
guides, there’s going be coaches there is going to be things I can learn from. Nobody is going
to be able to do it for me and nobody is going to be able to tell me what exactly I, as an
individual person, need to do. You’re going to need to develop your own acuity and adjust as
you go. You’re going to have to be willing to take some failures. You’re going to have to get
used to the idea that you are going to invest in ideas that are not going to work. God, I mean
that’s the whole thing about why guarantees suck. If you will only buy something with a
guarantee you are saying you want assurance that you know I am going to try this out and I am
sorta not willing to throw the money away. I am sort of not willing to fail in some arena. Be it,
failing throwing some money away quote on quote throwing some money away - something
that doesn’t quote on quote - guarantee me success. I think you need to be able to just say fuck it - I’m going to try this and its going to work or its not and I am just going to have to
have the balls to do it. Does any of that resinate with you, Lee?
Well absolutely, I think also, that’s one of the reasons I am in favor of this stripped down
approach because - here’s the thing. If the restaurant idea I talked about earlier didn’t work what have I lost? Some time - that’s about it. I’ve lost a little tiny bit of money and have lost
some time. What have I gained? I’ve learned something - I could’ve gone through that process
and learned you now what - Ethiopian food - there’s nobody in Albuquerque is interested in it
But I also could’ve learned - oh my god - we had overwhelming, huge numbers of people that
wanted Ethiopian food. What does that information get you? Maybe that’s when you start a full
time restaurant. You learn something from your failures the only way. That is why I think this
whole stripped down idea is very, very important. The whole idea of keeping it simple and
that’s why I like this sort of - Naomi calls it itty biz - when I interview Seth Godin he talked
about how he’s got a one person business - basically, it’s him. That’s really why I like that
idea. It allows you to fail in a way that you know here’s the thing. If you start a restaurant - a
physical restaurant, just keeping it at that analogy - and it fails, you are going to deal with the
consequences of that or potentially years to come. It could put you into bankruptcy, it can put
you into debt, that you don’t, can’t declare bankruptcy. You just have to keep paying people
every month. It could - all those things that to me that sort of load of stuff is not worth it,
particularly in the economy we’re in today and particularly when things are fluid as they are. So
I think that idea of getting out there and doing stuff and failing - getting your failures out of
the way, it’s really important. An example, a personal example, was I was working at NBC for 5
years and I just made a conscious decision to quit and we moved to New Mexico with about 2
weeks salary. My wife, two of our kids two of our cats lived in a hotel room for 6 months. One
of the reasons I lived in a hotel room for six months is because - all I had to do is come up with
the rent that day. I had to come up with enough money that day to cover where we were at.
There was no point I had to come up with a thousand bucks - I had to come up with $47 bucks
a day. I knew I could do that - any given day I could come up with $47. I could borrow $47
from somebody and had to 3 different days - I had to borrow $47 from my ex-wife. I knew I
could pay back $47 in a day or two. It wasn’t like hey can I borrow a thousand bucks? Here’s
the thing, you can’t borrow a thousand bucks. So if I had rent that was a thousand bucks a
month I knew that could be tricky. I kept things loose, affordable, stripped down. I had the
stuff I needed to work - we had computers. The kids were taken care of - the kids were
perfectly happy - they had their video games. We got rid of a lot of possessions - we got rid of
furniture and stuff like that but we made sure the kids had the stuff that they cared about. They
had their video games, they had their books - they had their toys. While living in a hotel we
made sure we bought the kids a little lego or something every few days or once a week or every
couple weeks. The kids were happy - they had their stuff. We’d go to the library, we’d do
things that were free. Keeping yourselves stripped down - there’s strength in that . I was able
to get out of that situation that I put myself in, but I was able to get out of that situation pretty
quickly. Too me 6 months of paying dues beats 4 years of business school or something like
that. People are like - well that’s is ballsy - I guess it is but one of the ways I look at it is I
didn’t have any choice. When I had my job for 5 years I had a steady full time job that paid
well, that had benefits, and yet I was in debt every week. I had more pay day loans when I
worked at my job. One of the great things about not having a job is they don’t give you pay day
loans anymore. That’s a real big advantage. So just living week to week, paycheck to paycheck
but I was working at NBC - that was worse. I wasn’t doing stuff that I thought was important.
The good thing about not having a job there and living in a hotel was, at worst, any given day I
could do something that I thought was important. Whether it is spending more time with my
kids or make a political video. I would just get up in the morning and do something that was
important. Man, it was better. It was just better.
You have to go into things with your eyes open. Again, I am just going to refer to the guest
interview with Adam Baker because his new thing is called Un-automate your finances which
basically means we automate things so that they are out of the way. He is saying no no no - do
the opposite. Don’t make your finances easy - it needs to be something you pay attention to.
It needs to be something you are mindful about it. That’s what all this is, too. You just need to
be mindful about what you’re doing. If you want to work at a 9 to 5 job for 40 years and try to
get the gold watch - then god speed - the more power to you. As long as you are doing it
consciously. And similarly and if you decide that is too high of a price to pay for you and you
decide you want more freedom you want the increased capacity or possibility of larger success
that will come as an entrepreneur then you need to do that consciously, as well. You need to
go into it saying - look, I may fail 9 times before I succeed but the thing is going into that with
your eyes open and realize that failure is something that ends your life. You know what Lee’s
talking about here - I don’t want to speak for you Lee but I am going to make an assumption
let’s see if I’m right. You could’ve decided after doing the hotel thing and living the stripped
down existence and maybe you could’ve said okay well its not going to happen with what I’m
going to do - I’m going go get a job that maybe you don’t like it but you can do it. Maybe you
decide you want to go back. You pretty much always go back. Is that true?
Johnny:
Yeah, I guess.
Lee:
I am not saying you should go into it with that plan B but understand that you are not jumping
off a bridge in the total way. People tend to think - you may get into some serious shit, you
may way into debt, you may file bankruptcy - even if you lived in a - I don’t know, you were
living in an alley or something. There is always - it’s not like starving in a ditch in Ethiopia. It
just isn’t. Its like the worst case scenario - I’m not trying to paint a real grim picture here you need to understand what you’re reality is - you may screw up and you may end up in a
situation that you don’t particularly dig - like maybe if you are listening to Lee’s story and
finding $47 a day and maybe that sounds real shitty to you but he still went about his life, still
had his family, and it was still a good enough existence, you are living in America, you have a
roof over your head everybody’s healthy. It’s not the dire circumstances that you may think. I
think that a lot of people think that number one - I’m going to fail - well that’s not cool - I
can’t fail and can’t have something that I try and risk and going to fail because they magnified what failure really means rather than really thinking about what it
would mean. It just means an adjustment. That’s all it means. It means that if you decided
okay I really don’t like - this is the wrong path - you can turn around and go back. You aren’t
burning bridges. You just need to understand where you really stand and I think that people
get into a stance that where they say okay well where I am rather I’m successful or unsuccessful
it means this and if I end up in a situation it means this. That’s not true any more than it’s true
that you can’t be a monopoly player in a band - like Bruce Springsteen’s band - had a
monopoly player. If your biggest concern is what if I invest in a course - maybe I do need a
new computer for my business for some reason and I don’t want to take that risk Just realize
what you are doing has to entail risk and you have to accept it as risk. You can’t say that I’m
unwilling to do that and if you are willing to do that then you have to accept the consequences
of that, too. You just have to see all sides of every course of action as they really are and not
magnified.
Also, in my specific example it’s not like when I had my job I didn’t have to borrow money. I
had to borrow money then, too. You know like I said those pay day loans - I was paying $45 a
week interest on those. It was a better alternative then bouncing checks and which is a $35 fee
each time. It’s not like - I think the thing is - you do this research yourself - google it or check
your local paper - look for instances of people leaving their job to do something they love and
then dying. Look for articles - man found dead after leaving job to pursue interests he loved.
As cause of - cause of death - starving to death because they pursue what they love. Our
streets are not filled with homeless people - homeless entrepreneurs. That’s not the
demographic. And when you hear stories of people living in the back of a truck or something
like that. Find out how that happened. Usually, they were working a job and they got laid off
on that job and they couldn’t - then they spent all their time trying to one of two things - trying
to find another job - asking other people to hire them or getting into the welfare system in one
way or another. There’s no point like when we were living in a hotel that I ever - I’m not even
making a political statement because I am a Liberal and I am in favor of having a social safety
net - that being said I have never pursued it myself personally. The amount of time I would
spend trying to collect unemployment - I’ve never collected unemployment - I’ve never done
anything like that. To me that time spent is blown where I could be trying to figure out what
I’m actually going to do - how to use my skills to go somewhere else. So, to me it was a real
simple choice - I knew we wouldn’t die - there as no point we would die. Then you have to ask
yourself - again if you are listening in on this course - I assume it’s because you want to get to
a different place then you are now. You’re where you are now and you want to get some place
else. If you want the status quo - why would you be listening to this? Maybe that status quo is
that you want to more money. Maybe some of the stuff we talked about made you realize you
don’t need more money. If you had sixteen cents and you want to live in a yacht. Do you know
what you should do, Johnny?
Johnny:
What should you do? Get a job on a yacht?
Lee:
Get a job on a yacht because what’s your goal is your goal to live on a yacht or is your gaol to
lay in the sun on a yacht all day - by the way - very few people do that. If you want to live on a
yacht - go live on a yacht. That’s the thing - go do it. You can go get a job on a yacht and
suddenly you are working on a yacht and then you make your next move. You started - hey
look I got my goal - I’m living on a yacht. What’s the next goal - to sun on the yacht? Okay,
well figure out how to do that. You got to start someplace - get to the next rung of the ladder
you are looking at. I guess if you want to sun on the yacht - there are ways to do that to. Hook
up with somebody that suns on the yacht all day.
Johnny:
Become their oiler.
Seriously, in some way - look if you are dating somebody whose lifestyle is laying around on a
yacht that’s what you’ll end up doing. The thing is a lot of people - their goal is to live on a
yacht - and they think they are going to do that by working. It’s really easy - you can trace a
career path. If you’re working at Quiznos making sandwiches - if you show me a route from
there to living on a yacht - I’d love to see it. Even if you own a Quiznos - a lot of times what
you’re doing is you own a business that’s a minimum wage job, basically. If you go out and
buy a Subway shop franchise or something - the people who you see working - go into any
Subway or Quiznos sandwich shop - look behind the counter - there will be teenagers and
usually this one sort of older tired looking dude. Guess who that is - that’s the entrepreneur that’s the business owner. He’s working with 19 year olds making sandwiches. Why - because
that’s what you do. That’s really unfortunately the career path for a lot of that stuff. That guys
goal is freedom and independence and now he’s making sandwiches and he’s 40. How did that
work out? I get the goal completely but be realistic about it and like I say - people don’t die
from doing this stuff. I new we wouldn’t die - there was no question that my kids weren’t
going to starve. If there is a practical thing here is - you need to put yourself in that situation
sometimes to figure out what the next step is. You can’t - this goes back to Johnny’s balls you can not sit safely in the comfort of your status quo whether that’s your job - look, I don’t
even care about the job. If you are not happy being an Internet marketing entrepreneur right
now - you you’re own boss. If Johnny wasn’t happy doing what he’s doing right now - the
solution is to stop doing it and to start figuring out a direct path of doing the things that you
do want to do. The practical hint to me - sometimes - and this is why I lift my job - I left my
job knowing - I tried to set up a safety net it took me months to quit my job. I tried to set it up
- I didn’t just one day walk in and quit - we planned it. That being said is a certain point it was
just a jump. It was just like okay here we go let’s do this. That’s what you need to do too.
That’s absolutely what you need to do too. At a certain point I’m not saying jump blindly - but
at a certain point you need to create that pressure - and you know what if you are in a place
right now where you got a you a great house..blah blah- but you are miserable and unhappy...
None of the rest of this has resinated then hear this. I don’t know if you have a lot more to say
Lee, but maybe this is a good point to sort of wrap it up on. Keep in mind the axiom we heard
a thousand times that doesn’t get in my mind enough really true focused attention and really
thinking about it as if it were true which it is. If you do what everyone else does you will get
what everyone else gets. Think about who you are taking your advice from - people tell you it’s
dumb to do it and you are working 60 hours a week on a dock and you hate it and you’re dock
worker friends are telling you don’t quit you won’t have any security - do you like the way that
they’re living? If you want to have a yacht, let’s take that example - you want to own it and you
want to be rich, wildly successful - are you going to get there working in your office? Even the
President - does even the president have a yacht? And do you have a prayer of getting there?
You have to look at the trajectory that you are going on and then people give that idea lip
service that they don’t stop and really think.
Most people do not like their jobs. Most people wish they had more time to do what they want
to do and see their families more, maybe. Most people are dissatisfied more often than they
satisfied. Like hour wise, their waking ours -more people are doing something they don’t want
to do more often than doing something they do want to do. You have to say if that’s the
dominant paradigm - if that’s the map of get the job and stay in the job because that’s quote
on quote secure - then you have to ask well okay we see what that gets - we see what lifestyle
that creates. Do I want it? And if you do then great knock yourself out. But if you don’t and
you stay in that job - that’s really just not that intelliging. You just have to think about and just
realize where you are going. Does that make sense?
Let me just cap that with one other thing, too. Johnny and I before we do these calls - we will
call into the number and we record these calls but before we do that we just bullshit like friends
usually about 15 minutes before we do the call. Then we will exchange email offline and just
bullshit and I was just thinking this is based on a true saying. We have never had a
conversation - if you listened to our private conversation they never go like this - hey how
much money did you make today - I got a new sign up last night and made 1000 bucks - oh
cool that’s great, I made $47 bucks just this morning and I expect to make another... We’ve
never had that money conversation - I don’t think one time ever.
Johnny:
No we haven’t.
Lee:
Right? What we talk about is like - I talk to this screenwriter and he was really cool and we are
now exchanging email and he’s great and he’s got a movie coming out next week. Johnny will
talk about like - I’m getting ready to South by Southwest and check out what Chris Brogen is
did here...
Johnny:
And my Droid phone if finally shipping, thank god.
Right. The stuff we talk about that we actually, not for the purpose for this course, but the stuff
we actually talk about - it comes down to this. Hey, look how cool my life is. This neat thing
happened. That is what it comes down to. If we were working jobs - I worked jobs - I worked
plenty of jobs. Here is how our conversation go - Hey how’s it going. You know another day same ole same ole. Is the conversations you have with the checkout people at Walmart or
whatever. Hey, how’s it going? Well, pretty good but the day has just started.
Johnny:
It’s hump day - it’s Wednesday - I’m over the hump.
Lee:
What’s weird is I go to Walmart and I’m checking out and I say - you make pleasantry’s with the
person. Hey, how’s it going. You know, working hard beats hardly work or whatever. Oh
really, that’s neat because I just spent 3 hours on a phone call with this novelist and
screenwriter and he’s totally awesome - the person at Walmart would just stare at you like I
can’t relate to anything you’re saying. It would be like explaining how to write a Wordpress
blog to my cat. That’s the big difference. I can have a conversation with Johnny because we are
not in the same office - we’re just both doing things we’re interested in. We are just both
doing things we like doing and the conversations are inherently interesting and even a bad day
is like oh I’m having trouble writing this article or whatever. Even a bad day is better than what is the most awesome day you’d have as a Walmart checker? I remember I made pizza for
a long time - the best day is i didn’t get burned or smell as bad when I went home. That was
like a great day. Or maybe get a 5 dollar tip - that was awesome.
If you’re having a great day buy the way if having fun a job like that - you are usually breaking
the rule. You are having fun because you are doing something maybe you shouldn’t be doing.
That’s right, yes. How was your day - I embezzled a thousand dollars - oh awesome.
Johnny:
That is not quite what I imagined but yes.
Lee:
You meant more like I was on the Internet and I met somebody interesting
Johnny:
Or you were knocking boxes off of the top shelf onto some jackass.
Lee:
Yeah, sure, that’s better than embezzling. When Johnny and I talk about stuff it’s always likeseriously - all of our pre-conversations are like - oh so here’s something cool - and Johnny will
tell me something cool - and then I’ll go here’s something cool and I will tell him something
cool and then we both go cool. It just gets back to the central premise which is a real punk
premise and there’s punk bands that no one’s ever heard of and there’s some still around today
- like the Descendants have never had a big Radiohead or nothing like that. The Descendants
aren’t even Green Day or Weezer - but man, they’re still around and the lead singer managed to
get his doctorate along the way, too. I consider bands like that successful. They got a fan base
- I like them - and they do what they want to do whether it’s recording an album or pursuing a
post graduate degree.
Johnny:
Doesn’t Craig still teach at like Cornell or something.
Lee:
Yeah, that’s the thing because a lot of these people who are..
From Bad Religion, they have had a few hits and then in general they have gone back
underground.
The other thing that they’ve done too, is a lot of these bands that you may not have ever heard
of have - sparked other bands. That’s the other thing they have done. When t comes down to
the end of the day and the legacy - of actually accomplishing something - at the end of the day
the act I’ve taught people how to make films for instance - and I get email from someone I
talked to 15 years ago. They’re like - hey I made a film. That’s what I like. That’s the other
thing here. That’s why I mentioned a lot of the bands who were influenced by punk ended up
starting other genres like alternative or whatever. That’s the thing here. I will cap it with this the most punk thing you can do if you’re punk is not be a punk.
Johnny:
Do not go out of your way.
Yeah, it’s just do what you’re doing. Like I say, that’s the thing I think is interesting, Johnny’s
talking about that stuff, I know that for us it’s not just about the money and paychecks and
anything else, although that ends up happening. The weird thing is if you don’t pursue it - that
can end up happening to a greater degree than you might expect. I think it’s a good place to
close it, right?
Johnny:
Absolutely, I think that makes a lot of sense and really encapsulates a lot of what we’re
doing with this product through this course - what we’re trying to do anyway.
Lee:
Yeah, here’s the thing whatever we make money from this course the thing will be I know for
both of us much more interesting that if 5 years from now somebody emails us and says - Hey,
I got to thinking about that restaurant thing you mentioned blah blah - I had no interest in a
restaurant but I took that same principal and I started a sporting good store because I love
sports and blah blah blah. That’d be great. I mean whatever it is...you know.
Johnny:
Yeah.
Lee:
I have no interest in sporting good stores but if that’s what you’re into and you get inspired by
it that’s great. I guess the final thing is email us in 5 years. There.
Johnny:
We want to know your successes - we want to hear them.
Lee:
Yeah. Okay, that’s it.
Johnny:
Alright, thanks everybody. We’ll talk to you in the next one.