1. travel
2. tourist destinations
3. africa

The po int
pr ogress
is that w h e n we
look at w h a t is ha ppe nin g,
that has bee n made.
the views
and p o s it io ns
there have bee n signs,
make concessi ons
m is tr us t w h i c h
division,
All
of others
the pa rti es
in all the W o r k i n g Groups,
consensus.
still p r ev a il s
is great
have b e e n ex po s e d to
if I lis tened carefully,
towards
there
and
for a re ad in es s
H o w e v e r b e c a u s e of the legacy of
in the country,
because
of d ec ad es of
be ca us e of the a r r o g a n c e of a p a r t h e i d in the past, we
unable to get on wi t h
to
the ne go tiation.
are
Let us b u r y the pa s t and start
negotiating.
Ho wev er c o n s i d e r i n g the strai ns
and st re ss es
of our society,
and
comparing our presen t p r o g re s s w i t h the rate of progress c h a r a c t e r i s t i c
of such p r o ce ss es
in shame.
elsewhere
Hitches
and s to ppa ge s
me t t l e and we da r e not
difficulties.
in the world,
are inevita bl e;
they w i l l test our
be d i v e r t e d from our p r e s e n t cause by such
In r e s p e c t of W o r k i n g G r o u p
Party has argu ed the p r i n c i p l e
tution-making.
we ne e d not ha n g our heads
2, the X i mo k o P r o g r e s s i ve
of i n c l u s i v i t y in the natter of c o n s t i ­
C o n s i s t e n t w i t h this argument,
high er special m a j o r i t y for c o n s t i t u t i o n a l
we have s u p p o r t e d a
amendments,
we
would
accept 70% here.
Ho we ve r as a p o l i t i c a l party,
Pr o g re ss iv e Party is s e n s i t i v e
w i t h a strong regional focus,
and w o u l d
str on gl y
the Xim ok o
suppor t
the
pr inciple of also a s u b s t a n ti al m a j o r i t y in re g i o n a l g o v e r n m e n t and
regional matters.
I would
like to end,
State President,
a g a i n by a p p e a l i n g p e r s o n a l l y to Madiba; to the
to forge ah ea d in the pr oc es s
of b r i n g i n g pea ce
/ the . . .
in
the country and to rem ind
as a great man, at the
he was going to w o r k
Ma di b a of the g re at sta te me nt
end of the treaso n trial, where he stated that
for b r i n g i n g
this c o u n t r y to
wh ere Black and W hit e w i l l be able to share,
for that cause.
that he made
We w a n t
a
pe ac e f ul end
and that he w o u l d die
to see it h a p p e n here today w h e n the people
are called upon to b r i ng pe ace
for the future of our country.
I thank you.
MR JUSTICE SCHABORT
Thank you,
Prof Ntsan wi si .
Ladies and Gentle me n,
Mr
I Om a r of S o l i d a r i t y P ar ty is the next
speaker.
/Mr Chairpersons.
MR I OMAR
SOLIDARITY PARTY
Mr Chairpe rs ons ,
H o n o u r a b l e D i g n a t o r i e s , F e l l o w C o u n t r y Persons.
It is a fact that we as S ol id a r i t y P ar ty re p r e se nt
tuency in our country,
a small
and so the di spu te of w h e t h e r there
consti­
shoul d be
70% or 75% does not rea ll y affe ct us as a party, tut what is important
is the principle.
suffered today.
And
I want
to come to the se t - b a c k that we
It is a fact also that it is a
unable to rep or t as w e h a d contem pl at ed .
also u n d e r s t a n d that in not h a v i n g
not amount in itself
have
s et -b ac k that we are
But then I think w e mu s t
su c c e e d e d in r e p o r t i n g
to a failure of the proce ss
today does
of n eg ot ia ti on s.
Wh a t really is the cause of the s e t - b a c k is the fact that all sides
relate d to this crucial issue that was in debate
tal ke d of a package,
b e c a u s e the p a ck ag e was not complete, unfortun at el y,
co uldn't go ahead w i t h yo u r age nd a as pr oposed.
m e a n that we could not do so,
COD ES A 3 - to w h i c h we
The failure to fi na li se
once
shows
is
resolved,
at
and it must be u n d e r s t a n d a b l e
on the fact
that are r e p r e s e n t e d
The fact that there was
in
those
c o n s u l t a t i o n to and fro
that go w e l l b e y o n d these rooms,
that u nd er those c i r c u m s t a n c e s
to resol ve all those d i f f e r e n c e s
I think in all fairness
you
But that does not
a centr al d e ta i l also re fl e c t s
that there are c o n s t i t u e n c i e s
v i r t u a l l y im po s s i b l e
pa c k a g e
Chairman,
look forward.
that it is not only a few p a rt ie s
n e g o t i a t i n g rooms.
the
Mr
and
to all the parties,
since re at tempts by all concerned,
there
it was
in a week.
were
But
genuinely
and that fact m u s t not be decried.
/Now.
Now it is also
pol it ic al
I
understandable,
posturing
Mr C hairp er so ns,
that there w i l l be
b ec a u s e we have n ot hi ng else
am afraid of, in the posturing,
is that we m i g h t
that is an xi ous ly w a t c h i n g us today,
we mus t be aware of that fact.
to re po r t on. What
send to the na ti o n
the w r o n g kind of signals.
A n d I want to tell the
nation
they mus t also u n d e r s t a n d that after a legacy of h u n d r e d s
injustice,
suspicion, mi st ru st ,
resolve yo ur d i f f e r e n c e s
in six mon th s
for just about six months.
time.
In fact,
mis rule,
And
that
of years of
that y o u are not going to
- and
It is a proce ss
C O D E S A has be e n sitting
that is go ing to take
if I m ay use a famo us qu otation:
There
is simpl y no
easy road to f r e e d o m for South Africans.
W h a t South A f ri ca ns hav e also
witnes sed , they must understand, is that
it is our nat io n w r e s t l i n g w i t h
w i t h w h i c h we wi l l be
prosper.
itself
able to live and w i t h w h i c h we w i l l be able
of p a s s i n g
about ord in ar y m a j or it ie s.
m a k i n g req uires
is that we
l e g is la ti on for w h i c h y o u talk
It is a u n i v e r s a l no r m that c o n s t i t ut io n
a m a x i m u m amo un t of consensus.
are w r i t i n g
the
f u n da me nt al rules
the po li ti ca l actors w i l l be bound.
that you get co ns ens us
And
The re as o n for that
of the game by w h i c h all
the re fo re
of a m a j o r i t y of the pl ay er s
to the f u n d a m e n t a l rules of the game,
afraid,
to
Now, one must also u n d e r s t a n d that we are m a k i n g a Constitution.
We are not in the p r o c e s s
play
to p r o d u c e a new C o n s t i t u t i o n
Mr Chairpe rso ns ,
it is im po rta nt
who are going to
and if we don't,
that the v i o l e n c e that we decry,
then I am
m i g h t not
be resolved.
And I wa n t
to ex pre ss
one
the fears of commu nit ies .
truth,
He' s
even Mr M a n d e l a has spoken of assuaging
spoken of tak in g the w h o l e
country
w ith him.
country.
He's ma de en orm ou s a s s u ra nc es
And I wa nt
to ask the question:
d es pit e the fact that we want a n o n- ra c i a l
to the W h i t e s of
this
at the end of the day,
country,
will we really
have a s uc ce ss fu l C o n s t i t u t i o n in this c o un tr y if 90% or 95%
the Whit es of S o ut h A f r i c a re j e c t w h a t e v e r we ag re e upon?
of
It is
an important q u e s t i o n that we will have to address.
The Way Forward,
sir,
is to sit down
no mat te r h o w long it takes.
have time con straints,
again and h a m m e r out a solution
It is qu it e p r o b a b l e that we
must
but we will have to ham me r out a solution.
That is The Wa y Forward.
The rea so n for that,
is not the only show in town;
sir,
is that CDDESA
it is the only show in the country,
and South A f ri ca n s ha v e no ot he r cho ic e but to n e g ot ia te
a
new
Constitution.
Thank you,
Mr Chairpe rs ons .
MR JUSTICE MAHOMED
Thank you,
Mr Omar.
Our last speake r for this ev eni ng will be Br i g a d i e r R a m u s h w a n a of
t_he Venda Government.
uomorrow on this part,
State President,
Thereafter
I have only two m o r e sp eakers
and they will be
Mr F W De Klerk,
in that order:
the
and Dr N e l s o n Mandela.
/C h a i r p e r s o n s .
BRIGADIER M G RAMUSHWANA
VENDA GOVERNMENT
Chairpersons,
D i s t i n g u i s h e d Guests,
has been a b a r o m e t e r
La di e s and Gentlemen,
CODESA 2
to m e a s u r e the ex t e n t to w h i c h the a s pi r a t i o n s
of the peop le of S o u t h Af r i c a w o u l d be s a t i s f i e d wi t h the
of the proces s of ne gotiations.
outco me
These peo pl e of South A f r i c a are
ex p e c t i n g to see a ne w South Af ri c a w h i c h will be r ul ed democratically
by all the peo pl e of So ut h Africa.
Venda a p p re ci at es
the pro gr e ss ma d e
in the W o r k i n g Grou ps
and 5, but we are
s a dd en e d by
impasse
the
of
c o n s ti t u t i o n a l p r i n c i p l e s by W o r k i n g G r o u p 2.
process of m a k i n g S o u t h A f r i c a a d e m o c r a t i c
resolving
Venda
state.
of the Bill of Rights.
view,
we acce pt
of the Co ns titution,
the
p ri nci pl es
in the a m e n d m e n t
I
But from a d e m o c r a t i c c o m p r o m i s e point of
a c r o s s - t h e - b o a r d on an y r e l e v an t issues.
seriously.
4
the
su pports
and
75% to the a m e n d m e n t to the Bill of Rights,
c o m mi tt ed to democracy,
3,
Basically, V en da
sup po rt ed a t w o - t h i r d s m a j o r i t y in any c o n s t i t u t i o n a l
a f f e c t i n g the a m e n d m e n t s
1,
If the
and 70%
Government
it will take these c o m p r o m i s e s
is
into ac c o u n t
Let us be c o m m i t t e d to e s t a b l i s h i n g a ne w So ut h A f r i c a
by b ei ng ho ne s t to the truth of r e m o v i n g all raci al
special p r o t e c t i o n of mi no rities,
w h i c h was do n e
relics,
and
in the past.
We re je c t the e s t a b l i s h m e n t of an u n d e f i n e d H o u s e of Se na t e w h i c h
proposes
to be e n t r e n c h e d wi t h ve t o powers.
Af r i c a n G o v e r n m e n t
We call up o n the South
to be s e n si ti ve to the y e a r n i n g for
democracy
and f r ee do m by the m a j o r i t y of the peo pl e of S o u t h Africa.
1948 their party
Since
in So ut h Af ri c a has been the m a j o r o b s t a c l e
/ a d m i n i s t r a t i o n . ..
to the
a d m i n i s t r a t i o n of justice.
It is r e gr e t t a b l e
that at C O D E S A
2,
the South A f r i c a n G o v e r n m e n t has failed to d e m o n s t r a t e a willingness
to move from bei ng gui de d by the past po li cie s and principles.
people of Sou th Africa,
holdi ng their b r ea th
as well as the i n t e r n a t i o n a l
in a n t i c i p a t i o n of
CO DE SA 2, w hi ch pur por ts
the
kind
community,
of
to cl ear ly ind ica te a path
The
are
o u tc o m e of
to a genuinely
d em oc ra ti c South Africa.
I wish to con cl ud e by saying that w h o s o e v e r is c o n t r i b u t i n g
de ad lo ck in W o r k i n g G r o u p 2,
should be a wa re of the fact that they
shall go do wn in the hi st o r y of our co un tr y as h a v i n g
cre ation of an or t h o d o x d e m o c r a c y in our country.
the true democracy,
s a b o t ag ed the
Le t us move towards
w h i c h d ep ri ve s p ow er to those who are ruling, and
tr ansfer it to the m a j o r i t y of the ci ti ze ns of the country.
however,
to the
awa re of the fact that
po wer
is pollutable,
I
but d e m o c r a c y
does not a l l o w the p e r p e t u a t i o n of c l i n g i n g to power.
Th ank you.
MR JUSTICE MAHOMED
That concl ude s our spe ake rs for tonight.
We are sc h e d u l e d
begin at 9.00 o' c l o c k to m o r r o w morning.
CONVENTION ADJOURNED TO 16 M AY 1992
am,
to
BDS09335
C•O•D•E•S•A
SECOND PLENARY SESSION
GOVT
4
PER
1
J
705
.G3
.5 7
j
j,
VOLUME IV : 16 MAY 1992
C O•D•E•S
A
ey/jims
SECOND PLENARY SESSION
DIRECT TRANSCRIPTION & RELEVANT DOCUMENTS
VENUE:
DATE:
WORLD TRADE CENTRE
KEMPTON PARK
15 & 16 MAY 1992
TRANSCRIPTION PREPARED BY: SEEMAC TRANSCRIPTIONS CC
P O BOX 755
RIVONIA
2128
TEL :
FAX:
[Oil] 803 - 7640
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REF:
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BD289336
16 MAY 1992
INDEX
MR JUSTICE SCHABORT OPENS CONVENTION
378
PRESIDENT F W D E KLERK
[SOUTH AFRICAN GOVERNMENT]
379 -■384
DR N R MANDELA
[AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS]
385 - 391
MR JUSTICE SCHABORT
392
SLIDE PRESENTATION BY MR P J GORDHAN
[CHAIRMAN: MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE]
393 ■■399
MR Z TITUS
[MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE]
400 ■404
COMMENTS BY CHAIRPERSONS
■405
DR Z J DE BEER
[DEMOCRATIC PARTY]
406 ■407
MR N J REDDY
[SOLIDARITY PARTY]
408 ■409
MR M C ZITHA
[INYANDZA NATIONAL MOVEMENT]
- 410
MR A RAJ BANS!
[NATIONAL PEOPLE’ S PARTY]
411 - 412
MR C SALOOJEE
[NATAL INDIAN CONGRESS/
TRANSVAAL INDIAN CONGRESS]
413 - 414
BRIGADIER O J GQOZO
[CISKEI GOVERNMENT]
415 - 417
MR W S FELGATE
[INKATHA FREEDOM PARTY]
418 - 420
MR M N N RAMODIKE
[UNITED PEOPLE’S FRONT]
421 - 422
COMMENT BY MR JUSTICE SCHABORT
- 423
REMARKS B Y :
MR
MR
MR
MR
MR
JUSTICE MAHOMED
Z TITUS [MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE]
P J GORDHAN [CHAIRMAN: MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE]
W S FELGATE [INKATHA FREEDOM PARTY]
JUSTICE SCHABORT
424 - 426
MR I M RICHARDS
[LABOUR PARTY]
427 - 428
MR J SLOVO
[SOUTH AFRICAN COMMUNIST PARTY]
429 - 430
MR H J COETSEE
[SOUTH AFRICAN GOVERNMENT]
PRINCE S S J MAH LAN GU
[INTANDO YESIZWE PARTY]
- 431
432 - 433
COMMENT BY MR JUSTICE SCHABORT
- 434
BRIGADIER M G RAMUSHWANA
[VENDA GOVERNMENT]
- 435
DR T K MOPELI
[DIKWANKWETLA PARTY]
436 - 437
MR R CRONJE
[BOPHUTHATSWANA GOVERNMENT]
438 - 440
MAJOR-GENERAL H B HOLOMISA
[TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT]
441 - 442
DR F GINWALA
[AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS]
443 - 444
PROFESSOR H W E NTSANWISI
[XIMOKO PROGRESSIVE PARTY]
445 - 446
MR P J GORDHAN
[CHAIRMAN : MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE]
447 - 448
449
MR JUSTICE MAHOMED
DR N MANDELA
[AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS]
450 - 453
PRESIDENT F W DE KLERK
[SOUTH AFRICAN GOVERNMENT]
454 ■ 456
DR F T MDLALOSE
[INKATHA FREEDOM PARTY]
457
MR JUSTICE SCHABORT
458
MR JUSTICE MAHOMED
459
461
462
MR JUSTICE SCHABORT
DR Z J DE BEER
[DEMOCRATIC PARTY]
463
464
PROFESSOR S S RAPINGA
[INYANDZA NATIONAL MOVEMENT]
465
466
MR JUSTICE SCHABORT
- 467
PRAYERS
- 467
DECLARATION OF INTENT
ADDENDUM TO THE DECLARATION OF INTENT
468 - 470
- 471
C • O • <Dea//n• mEs • S • A
SECOND PLENARY SESSION
DIRECT TRANSCRIPTION & RELEVANT DOCUMENTS
16 May 1992
CO NVE NT IO N RESUM ED
MR JUSTICE SCHABORT
Good
morning
Plena ry
Forward,
Ladies and Gentlemen.
S es si on
are
of
CODESA.
the L e a d e r s
The
of
Welcome
remaining
the D e l e ga ti on
ba c k
two
have been eagerly
Dames en Here,
sp eakers
of
G o v e r n m e n t and of the A f r i c a n N a t i o n a l Congress.
at
the
the
on
South
Second
The
Way
African
Th ei r c o n t r i b u t i o n s
a w a i t e d here.
die S t a a t s p r e s i d e n t .
/PR ES I D E N T
379
PRESIDENT F W DE KLERK
SOUTH AFRICAN GOVERNMENT
H on ou ra bl e
variou s
Jud ges
Chairmen,
missions,
Leaders
of
your
emine nt
Excellencies,
De le g a t i o n s
and
visitors
from
Ambassadors
to
Members
of
ov er s e a s
South
De le gations,
in
Africa,
La di e s
and
Gentlemen.
Eef ore
a
turning
short
of
to
the
us
to
the
think
I
is
of
res ponse
that
our
to
relief
to
the
n e c es sa ry
mi ss io n
South Afr ic a' s
Mr Chairmen,
the
statements
to
the
we
mad e
yesterday
However,
It
ap ar the id
that
been
minority
stand.
has
-
as
a
of
of
Commission
to
is
a s s i s t a n ce
pr e p a r e d
w o rs t
of
be
ur g e n c y
arranged,
to
a f fe ct ed
The Government,
can
Co mm un it y
Community
the
the
am
the M in is te r
European
matter
detail s
Eu r o p e a n
have
a c c us at io ns
co nt inu ed
to
the
of
I
Ladies
to
make
and
we
and ask them to transmi t
a p p r e c i a t i o n for this gesture.
I
temptation.
of
visitors.
addition
some
this
thank the
many
Commission
Gentlemen, will
if
to
the
and
arrange men ts,
int ere st
of
in South Africa.
up
make
re que st
p o p u l a t i o n groups and areas
fol lo w
to
foreig n
in
the
like
the
and
region,
just
gr eat
Vice-President
o ut si de
e m e r ge n cy
would
of
Commission
Sen io r
African
pr ov idi ng
stake,
pre se nc e
in
the
at
I
that
ye s t e r d a y
Sou th er n
con si d er
the
Af f a i r s
Aid,
issues
wh ic h
in
ann oun ce
Drough t
informed
to
here,
Fo r e i g n
for
the
a n n o u nc em en t
del eg at io ns
please d
to
all
is
been
of
I
te mpt ed
want
and
not
closed,
us
-
but
to
make
innu end os
domination
simply
to
we
must
re ac t
have
one
that
in
deta il
de c i d e d
clear
the
to
to
re si s t
st at eme nt
Government
or
privilege.
I
can no t
true.
When
say
that
mean
now
it.
build
we
When
the
we
South
say
some
in
the
reply
pro mot es
allow
the
of
that
book
on
Mr Chairmen,
African
nation,
we
are
in earnest
ab out
it.
When
build a new C o n s t i t u t i o n we must
tion
built
other
into
spheres
that
new
S ou th
we
say
in
assure that there
c on st i t u t i o n a l
Africa
that
will
be
of
at te mp t
to
is no d i s c r i m i n a ­
system,
freed
our
and
that
also
d is cr im in at io n,
in
we
mean it; we are totall y co m m i t t e d to it.
En
daa ro m
situasie
in
h
Meneer,
oor
wanneer
die
ras ses in
probleem
daarvan
dan
pr aat
gepraat
v an
die
kultuurgroepe,
ver sek er
wees
wees;
dat
een
o n d e r d ru kk in g
gevolg
lande
was
van
wat
dit
ma nie re
in
nie
soos
ruimt e
van
vervang
die
no di g
gev in d
ons
wat
in
h
om
om
van
soveel
die
o n d e r h an de li ng -
dan
ha rt e
onderdrukking
nooit
de ur
van
kom pl ek se
ook
met
ons
nie
werklikheid
van
ons
be p a a l d e
hu ll e
wil
en
beskerm
sal
'n a nd er
soos
wig te
en
soos
taal-
dat
probleme.
sam el ew in g
af va ar d i g i n g s
van
gebiedere,
Dan p r aa t
ons
an der
veilig
word .
praat
die
lewe,
sal
so
hi er di e
te
ingewikkeldheid
eers
praat
belangegroepe,
hul le
vo r m
dan
ons
in
verskeidenheid,
be ko m m e r n i s
groepe,
dat
praat
van
nie;
Suid-Afrika,
het,
ons
ons
In
s'n
op
van
pr aa t
talle
ons
t ee wi gt e
vorm
as
ander
het
nie,
all erl ei
seker te maak dat ook die be lan ge van k l e i n e r b e l a n g e g r o e p e
daardi e
lande
ef f e k t i e f
be sk e r m
wor d
teen
die
misbruik
van
mag.
Ons
wil
op
ons
wil
op
gee n
gee n
wy se
wys e
n voortsetting
spe sia le
vo o r k e u r e
enige m i n d e r h e i d s g r o e p , nie die
groep,
The
inbou
in
Government,
die
nuwe
the
Na t i o n a l
van
Blanke s
gro nd we t
Par ty
of
diskriminasie
en
spe si al e
he
nie
voorregte
en
vir
of enige an de r min derheidsin
and
die
the
nuwe
ma ny
Suid-Afrika
ot he r
nie.
d e l eg at io ns
Mr Chairmen,
not
to
wh o
subje ct
spirit
in w h i c h
checks
and
should
ever
tion
the
an y
be
to
conce pt
F o u n di ng Fa th er s
That
to
dominate
of
checks
A m e r i ca n
the
may
pro pe r
to
able
that
upon
majority
balances.
or
h o we ve r
insist
be
minority
spirit
its
or
da m a g e
to
defined.
minorities
in
whims.
was the
mis us e
power
We
any
b a la nc es
Th e y
have
spir it
terms
in
the
their
no m a jo ri ty
of
are
of
so
the
i n t er es ts
in
do so,
i ns ti tu te d
that
G o v e rn me nt
way
do
to u n d e r m i n e
the
in
and
constitu­
minorities,
not
race,
d e fi ni ng
or
colour,
or any other d i s c r i m i n a t o r y norms.
Mr Chairmen,
reports
of
we
the
are
various
whi ch has been ma d e
fairly
clear
Forward;
sp ea ki ng
and
laudable
goals.
Important
Groups,
in
in
the
the
The
Groups
Way
an d
Forward.
al s o
from
From
the
the
pr og res s
in W o r k i n g G r o u p 2 - u n w r i t t e n as yet - em an at es
g ui de li n es
a tt ai na bl e
Working
ab ou t
guidelines
pointing
Time
does
consensus
consensus
all
of
not
which
which
for
the
us
al low
future; for
towar ds
me
to
we
have
re a c h ed
has
be e n
growing
The
pe ac e f u l
go
Way
and
into
detail.
ma ny
Wo rk in g
in
amongst
all
of
l e v el li ng
of
us, are the following:
That
the
we
are
playing
jo in tl y
jo i n t l y
field.
c o m mi tt ed
committed
We
to
must
the
to
en su re
c r e a t io n
on the ground w hi c h will make
co nt i n u e
a
level
of an
with
the
p l ay i n g
atmosphere
free and fair el e c t i o n s
field.
and
a
We
are
s i t ua ti on
tru ly possible.
We share with each other the c o n v i c t i o n that the c o n t i n u i n g v i o l e n ce
must
come
to an end and we re co m m i t ours el ves , also w i t h i n
work of the Peace Ac co rd , to
a t t a i n that and to do that.
/We
the f r a m e ­
We
joint ly
have
be li ev e
agreed
upon
be co mi ng clear,
that
we
need
f ra me wor ks
to
in
move
that
fo rwa rd
regard.
in
The
phases^ and we
frameworks
are c r y s t a l l i z i n g and are m a t e r i a l i s i n g .
what we have a l r e a d y attained,
material is in g.
And from
certa in com mo n p r a c t ic al goals
Thus it is m a t e r i a l i s i n g
specific l e g i s l a t i o n on a basis of
that
urgency,
are
are
there is a need for
and c e r t a i n
le g i s l a t iv e
nec e s s i t i e s have a l r e a d y been identified.
A
com mo n
have
a
practical
is
which
transitionary executive
impor ta nt
event,
goal
preparatory
we
can't
work
rea ll y
materialising
is
in
mo v e
that
has
materialised
many
fields
need
A
a
democratically
elected,
and
will
flow
a
of
all
in
turn, must flow a
tionary
us
here
c o un tr y
South
a lso
in
and
constitution,
a
in
final
which
unity,
a
people,
proud
they
final
yet
for
constitution,
a
and
in
the
any
goal which
n e go t i a t e d
will
result
Government
wh ich
representative
pa rt ic i p a t e .
ag r e e d
upon
From
transi­
fi nal ly n e g o t i a t e d
be tw ee n
which
ce n t u ri es
in
that,
the
constitution
hopefully,
must
and from that will emer ge
all
to be
which
that
multi-party
constitution
in a m a nn er
CODESA;
its
fr o m
we
doing
practical
tr a n s i t i o n a r y parliament, fully
Africans,
pa rl i a m e n t
com mo n
and
tr an si ti on al
will gov er n in a spirit of na ti o n a l
without
CODESA-inspired
tra ns i t i o n a l or i n te ri m constitution,
a
that
council with s u b - c o u n c i l s
forward.
we
is
must
to
serve
come.
constitution
in
this
A
good
step
wi th
the best w hi ch the rest of the w or ld can offer.
We
one
of
have
made
imp o rt an t
us
remarkable
s et ba ck
I belie ve
face
pr og re ss
which
I
a choice;
do
Mr
not
Chairman,
wa n t
to
do we go fo rwa rd
notwithstanding
the
und er es ti ma te .
All
al on g
these
guide-
lines, str iving
do
we
eleva te
cause
has
for
for
no
of
in
saying,
whi ch
a g r ee me nt
in
i n - f i gh ti n g
CODESA
that
goals
disappointment
tension,
foundati on s
reach
the
he si t a t i o n
identify
these
on
1
is
still
such
even
us
a
Working
sense
is
no
and
of
and
Group
The
f o rw ar d
ou ts t a n d i n g
There
r e co nc il iat ion ,
co n f l ic t?
move
with
issues.
of
delaying
and
2
spirit
of
let
and
a
b u il d
use
reasonable
2 to a
Go ve rn m e n t
on
urgency.
then
or
the
Let
us
CODESA
to
al te r n a t i v e
for that.
Let
us
to
rev ie w
improve
our
our
breath
one
we
do
we
mu s t
cannot
be
a
make
all
speed
productivity
must
and
and
do
well.
sl ap d a s h
A
r ic ke t y
Africans
th or oughness,
us,
this
venue
de m a n d i n g
from
us
We
between
the
they
of
better
want
life
poverty
to
or
In
mu s t
In
interi m
itself
strike
it
a
ne e d for time
millions
food,
the
a
are
succeed.
and
They
in
order
the
same
-
what
c o n s t i t ut io n
must
a l re ad y
balance
b e tw ee n
frames
and
the
later cost us dearly.
to
jobs
earnest.
necessary,
effe ct iv en es s.
affair.
proud.
there
development,
bu il di ng
our
if
t ra ns it io na l
av o id an ce of m i s t a k e s w h i c h will
O u ts id e
methods
e m p h a s i s e - however much we m a y be in a h ur ry
South
and
p r o ce d u r e s
for
of
They
So uth
wa n t
want
the
all
So ut h
be
Africans
peace,
f i g h t i ng
alleviated.
they
to
Africans
to
Th e y
wi ll in g
want
stop
and
begin
want
us
in
to
succeed.
Our
we
for
hearts
are
our
go
out
working
count ry
to
in
all
our
CODESA.
that
we
people.
It
must
is
work
It
for
and
is not
our
for
people,
that
we
ourselves
for
mu s t
our
that
youth,
succeed.
We
dare
we
not
say
fall
let
back
us
into
move
strife
forwa rd
and
in
confrontation
faith
and
in
and,
hope,
therefore,
let
us
con tinue
to reach out to all our peop le and to ea c h o t h e r to b r i n g our peopl e
to gether
forge
to
in
peace
here
in
follow ,
and
CODESA
to
in
harmony,
also
forge
in
here
the
a
Ons
b en ad er
ons
ned e r i g h e i d
in
th rou gh
w ee ks
spirit
and a unity of p u rp os e w hi ch will
mis takes of the past,
and
to
of
fo ll o w
word.
Ek
ta a k
die
nie
gees
vo re n t o e
net
te
g ek om
in
h
dat
lead this c o u n t r y
hoogheilige
ons
met
ge r o e p e
wo r d
op
d a ar di e
hierdie
sin nie,
is
tyd
nuwe
vir
daarvan
en
en
hi e r
bly
d aa rd ie
hard
verseker
gees
werk,
dat
al
be l a n g r i k
-
ons
po si ti ef
bly
gee
alles
so
gou
time
spirit
of
the
die
is
of
as
en
h
sy
the
e ss en ce
a n t wo or de u i t k c m wa t b l y w e n d e vrede
want
-
by
diepe
en
ons
het
kry
is
dat
Die
alle
bly
beskik
ons
tyd
Suidas
state.
saamwerk,
ten
aanvaar
finale
om
nasie
a re na van
h
kan
ger ee d
gekom.
en
en
gebou
Suif-Afrikaanse
ons
-
in
v e il i g e
mense
konstruktief
wa a r o o r
moontlik
maar
geregtigheid,
vandag,
g e s t al te
dat
sal
ons
months
va n b i l l i k h e i d teeno or
magsdeling
grondwet
tot
nasie sy tro tse plek inneem in die i n t e r n a s i o n a l e
In
a
out
fo n d a m e n t
land
oortuiging
Die
daardie
deel
alleen
vir
beweeg.
dat
Afrikaners
h
toekoms
ve rk l a a r
the
to
into a pr os p e r o u s and a sta bl e future.
Suid-Afrikaner,
voorspoedige
and
co-operation,
dat al l e e n op die f o n d a m e n t van geregtigheid,
elke
reconciliation
einde
te
spoed
is
oplossings
en
in ons land kan verseker.
Ek dank u.
MR JUSTICE MAHOMED
Our
next
speaker
has
many
titles,
I
will
refer
to
his
latest,
Ch a n c e l l o r Mandela.
/ C h a i r p e r s o n s . ..
385
DR N R MANDELA
AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS
Chairpersons,
Comrades,
are
Ladi es
me et in g
stable
ag ain
the
day
we
the
towards
Yet
hall
per ce pt io n
to
the
last
five
demonstrate
achieved.
So
refrai n
as
a
often
that
the
and
the
sense
that
i n sp ir e
own
had,
that
had
and
progress
fact,
been
co nv eye d
a m on gs t
indeed
us
been
c a rr ie d
and
could
for
people
said
delivered,
politicians,
last
was
in
some
gloom
end
that
no
and
progress
we r e
the
achieved
that
wan t
The
Convention
our
was
e f for ts
that
but
that we, as
all
at
message
things we did
va li a n t
not
we
the
to
large,
The
sp eeches
co uld
both
continuity,
that
overwhelming
we
insist
of
and
env ironment.
what
sessio n
at
that
on
ye s t e r d a y
sug ges ts
sug ges ts
built
yesterday
months.
despite
meet
the
A f ri ca
S ou th
w hi ch
Fel lo w Leaders,
here
predictable
h i s t o r ic
the
n ew
we
pro gre ss
first
this
and
whi ch
community
this
well
in
Guests,
ga t h e r e d
settin g
in te rn at ion al
over
as
a
We
familia r
show
the
from
made
same
in
South Africa.
com mu ni ca te d
made
a
will
du ri n g
De mo cr a t i c
to
today
and
I n t e r n at io na l
Gentlemen.
c i rc um st an ce s
December
a
and
pr oc ess es
phy s i cal
of
Distinguished
the
des pondency,
do
no
mo r e
than
speak as I do now.
And
yet
the
actual
radical
de p a r t u r e
of
what
we
we
did
is
in
of
a
very
brutal
know
going
from
do
yesterday,
dem oc ra ti c
to
mus t
to
the
strike;
man y
to
ca rr ie d
Fear
face
de ma n d s
w hi ch
polit ici ans .
play
Our
p ol it ic s
peop le
out
stalks
id e n t i f i a b l e
whether
we
things
these
crisis.
v i ol en ce
wh en
as
not
deep
change.
si tu ati on
on
by
our
as
the
define
We
but
land
well
that
be ca us e
as
trains,
die
are
none
fa ce le ss
in
the
ma ke
a
par am et er s
here
be ca us e
to
we
the
me et
con ti nu e
forces
that
today
our
as
countr y
a
result
op p o s e d
of
as
us
to
seem
as s a s si ns
are
t o wn sh ips
and
villages,
carry
and
on
and
the
br an d i s h
other
to
the
natural
of
spears,
as
in
no
the
though
to
a g ai ns t
world.
problem
Many
feel
battle-axes,
violence
thing
have
elsewhere.
d ea th
perpetrate
or g a n i sa ti on s
or
guns,
we apo ns
act ua ll y
most
roads,
kill,
even
whatsoever
su pporters or those w h o act in their name,
pangas,
o th er
It
emboldened
knobkerries
to
t h re at en
human
seems
when
to
and
beings
that
their
were
p o l it ic al
me m b e r s
and
take the lives of innocent
people in the pu r s ui t of one goal or another.
In
add it i on
b en ef it
seem
d e s pe ra te
our
the
of
people
of
many
many
grow
al s o
without
our
of
who
ea c h
expressed
will
which
rape
every
by
the
af fl i c ts
mi s m an ag e me nt ,
and
The
parts
the
more
of
get
crisis
of
food.
mi ll io ns
The
in
lives
by
country.
is
more
facing
miserable
the
economy
pe rsonal
to
re a l i t y
without
even
for
seem
moment.
and
made
ma n y
murder
haunting
homes
be
and
day
p a ss in g
without
peop le
gross
rob,
nu m b e r
with
jobs,
drought
years
in
bru ta l
is
of
terrib le
to
and
count ry
cr i m i n al s
the
Af te r
de cl in e
and
holds no imm ed ia te or f o r e s e e a b l e pr os pe ct to a d dr es s any of the urgent
and pr es si n g needs of our people.
On the h o r i z o n we can
see
and
no th in g
fabric
but
even
of
society
education,
family
more
m is e r y
affecting
life
all
and
furth er
aspec ts
everything
of
t h er ef ore
deterioration
life
else
i n c lu di ng
that
of
the
health,
d e fi ne s
human
existence.
The
be
a
question
the
leaders
co mp lic ate d
deeper
that
and
of
faces
our
formula
deep er
into
us
all
people,
is,
sit
how
long
can
here,
talk
eloquently,
and enj oy the applause,
crisis.
Fro m
where
we
wh o
c la im
spin
to
out
w h i l e the co unt ry
sinks
can
moral
we
cl ai m
the
right to assert that we need to move with
until
tomorrow solu ti on s
pos tpon e
their
postponed.
perpetu ate
us
should
of
thinking
to engage
all
our
be
that we can reach today?
S i m il ar ly
bondage.
wi l l i n g
that
Not
ment
Why do we put
they
do
the
only
in
to
do
leader
know
that
the
they
it
has
brought
us
they
created
the
accept.
peop le
struggl e
or
This
is
to
to
is
not
want
will
do
change
the
their
see
as
act in g
the
r el en tl es s
possibility
no th i n g
have
we
situation
And let none of us
mas se s
where
a
to
their
are
today.
for
a
of
have
these
negotiated
none
of
mi sta ke
their
condi­
the
duty
any g o v e r n ­
co mm o n
Through
serves
the
cha ng e
their
str ug gl e
only
mak e
they
condition,
freed om
w h ic h
chan ge
right,
ag ai ns t
off
The peo pl e cannot
A n y o n e of us who acts to d el ay that freedom,
to
tion.
hunger.
less speed?
good.
We
masses
their
that
struggles
resolution
of
the
problems of our country.
A nd
so,
COD ES A
that
the
whe n
and
we
as
indeed
Clearly,
we
our
country
the
goal
we
we
problems
met
c o nv en ed
wer e
that
of
on
end in g
ag ain
towar ds
here
today
that
misery
at
yesterday,
our
world
the
December
pl ag ue d
g a th er
the
last
cour se
have
can no t
and
here
we
and
have
our
first
he l d
pe ac e f ul
co unt ry
we
of
a
the
out
the
far
send
out
taken
no
a
too
of
long.
m e ss ag e
steps
That
of
hope
resolution
for
people.
s e ssi on
to
towards
is
clear ly
our
country
impermissible.
What
is
needs?
it
We
that
have
cons ti tu ti on
cratic,
our
to
w hi ch
no n-r aci al
peo pl e
mo ve
must
as
want?
qu ick ly
en sh r i n e
Wh a t
as
the
is
it
that
p o s s ib le
to
arr iv e
principle
of
a
and n o n -s e x i s t South Africa.
at
united,
a
new
demo­
If th er e is a n ybo dy
in
this
room
if
they
wo ul d
an
e l ec te d
who
wo uld
With
I
is
o p p os ed
us
know.
let
assembly.
is
To
Once
o p p o se d
to
regard
to
like
this
get
view
Firstly,
mak in g
body,
to
to
put
speak
let
us
body,
this?
to
all
there
the
us
a
it
w o ul d
be
good
constitution
we
need
democratically
if
there
it
on
also
also
be
Is
here
there
agree
that
c an di da te s
a
is
co n st it ut ed
anybody
in
this
be
if
they
propositions
that
w o ul d
numb er
we
basis
good
any
that
any
will
be
To
one
person,
help
our
propositions.
a
con si tu ti on -
one
vote,
with
party here today o pp ose d
p a rti es
e l ec te d
to
this
body
to the n u m b e r of votes
wh o
to
these
create
in p r o p o r t i o n
addition
who
of
to
pa rt i c i p a n t
in
whole.
like an yb od y wit h a d i s s e n ­
have
of
of
a
Is there any
agree
it,
as
ag ain st
that
the
within
are
I w ou ld
op en l y
agr ee
all
represented
obtain.
us
will
a
Co nv e n t i o n
forward,
out
el ec te d
Let
be
they
Let
such
objective,
the votes being of equal value.
will
objective,
to
again,
this
matter
country and pe o p l e move
to
this
let us know.
would
ting
to
constitution-making
con st it ue nt
room
who
is
a
op po se d
na ti ona l
el ect ed
on
a
to
this?
list,
there
re gi ona l
basis.
Is there any p a r t i c i p a n t wh o is op p o s e d to this?
Let
a
us
furthe r
agr ee
that
one chamber nat ion al
the
constitution-making
a s s em b ly
with
draft and adopt a new constitution.
to
this?
Let us ag ai n
con st i t u t i o n
tional
We
will
principles
cannot
allow
be
c a rr ied
that
the
agree
have
i nt e r i m
been
powers
to
Is there a n yb od y w ho
that
out
so v e r ei gn
body
the
within
and
work
the
will
constitution
of
fra me wo rk
any
of
here
interim
be
negotiate,
is op po se d
dr a f t i n g
be agre ed
or
shall
the
new
constitu­
at CODESA.
st ructure
to
be
Is
there
the
imposed
upon
anybody
el ections
who
we
an
in de pendent
of
our
or
is
talk
community,
present
that
it
country.
bey on d
They
For
this.
w hi ch
it
of
apartheid.
about
the
the
t h ro ug h
of
nor
the
are,
the
of
moral
pu bl i c
that
the
us
agree
will
body
that
have
pa s s e d
with
council
ado pt io n
by
us
the
time
the
ex e c u t i v e
charg ed
of
let
a
with
this
the
country
of
the
evil
convinced
The
to
to
an d
the
shocking
top
of
sooner
ail
our
pe o p l e
it
state
through
r e v e la ti on s
of
previous
system
has 'ne i t h e r
c ou nt ry
are
our
goes
sorry
immoral
the a s s a s s i n a t i o n
on
of
illegitimate.
rec en t
co m i n g
fact
however,
the
that
take
the
pe op l e
to be
to
inter­
to this?
the
reg im e
by
me mbe rs
the
admitted
the
that
supervised
of
matter,
funds,
leaders
of
disclosures,
able
to
decide
the better.
ag ai n
it
powers,
democratic
has
body.
ag re e
r e s p ec te d
is o p p o s e d
peo pl e
au t h o r i t y
agree
on
adjourns,
necessary
the
of
our
therefore,
Movement,
meantime,
up
and
of
pursuit
who should go ve r n the country,
In
ma de
al s o
representative
br o u g h t
the
us
conducted
count ry
trans fo rm at io n.
vi e w
Let
representatives
co ns i d e r
having
They
theft
the
our
ma s s e s
is
Democratic
confirm
of
majority
of
democratic
be
by
constitution-making
this?
c om mi ss io n
assisted
it
legiti ma cy
to
shall
sufficiently
the
the
Is there anybo dy who
These
acc us e
its
a bo ut
and
not
in
the
o pp o s e d
Government
is
co ns tra in
el e c t o r a l
national community.
The
to
a
the
le g i s l a t i o n
a
task
multi-party
of
moving
constitution,
nu m b e r
of
matters.
tricameral
to
cre at e
p ar li am en t
as a s t a tu to ry
transitional
the
count ry
le v e l l i n g
the
Let
ex e c u t i v e
towards
playing
the
field
and cr ea t i n g the clima te of free po l i t i c a l a c t i v i t y that will enable
/ free
.. .
free
is
and
and
oppos ed
have
fair
to
taken
e l e c ti o ns
this?
place,
Let
the
to
us
take
place.
further
el e c t e d
body
Is
agree
will
that
also be
there
once
the
an y b o d y
the
who
e l e ct io ns
i n te ri m
parlia­
ment o p e r a t i n g with a new exe cu ti ve to ge t h er c o n s t i t u t i n g an el ect ed
inter im government,
tution
which
has
bee n
adopted.
Our
people
wa n t
to hear
the
clear
commitment
shall
be
the basis
Hav i n g
mus t
the
the
this
of
will
and
also
se ssi on
Gro ups
all
take.'
t hese
have
p ar ti cu la r
long
to
to
to
the
the
CODESA,
e n su re
ve ry
determine
pr oc es s
new
consti­
to
propos it io ns.
in
una bl e
and
where
un a b l e
begin
to
this?
Wi tho ut
CODESA,
we
to
give
to
establish
of
to
the
elected
look
we
the
mo v e
at
the
dr aw i ng
up
how
ab ou t
the
in t e r i m
it
compo­
go ve r n m e n t
according
For
can
fo rwa rd
to
these
new
res tr uc tu re
ur q e n t l y
Management
question
election
the
We
soon a ft er the c o n c l u ­
The
the
go?
concerninq
function.
at
matters.
we
matters
constitution
will
cl ose ly
should
discussion
should meet
that
wh e n
next
outstanding
go ve r n m e n t
outstanding
look
for
a
op po se d
participant
in ter im
Committee
of
is
deadlocks,
all
relat ed
on
transitional
this
to
how
agree
until
w ho
these
every
matters,
con cl ud e
matters
the M a n a g e m e n t
Wo rk in g
rega rd
in
o th er
power
to succeed.
these
to
to
looking
c o n s t i t u e n t assembly,
therefore,
sion
all
spe ed ily
and
purposes
are
for n e g o t i a t i o n s
elected
whi ch
the
in
an yb od y
answe rs
o v e r c om e
pe o p l e
to
there
and
our
move
and,
our
remain
each
to
ag re e d
sition
Is
of
unab le
lea de r s h i p
will
of
sho ul d
with
Co mm it te e
time frames
take
place,
constitution
should
O th er o u t s t a n d i n g m a t t e r s mu s t also be resolved.
/In this
In
this
instanc e
political
I
refer
prisoners.
c o un tr ym en
rema in
in
It
in
par ti c ul ar
to
the
re lea se
is
quite
in t ol er ab le
p r i s on
w hil e
we
sit
of
that
here
remaining
these
and
talk
fellow
pi ous ly
about cr eating a c li ma te of free p o li ti cal par ti cip at ion .
Let
me
co nc lu de
e v e ry bo dy
in this
the mse lve s
count ry
by
in
thanking
room w i t h
wo r d
into
a
and
yo u
all
deed
peaceful,
for
the
to
your
and
by
force at my disposal,
the
stable,
patience
speedy
to commit
transformation
prosperous,
urging
n o n- ra ci al
of
and
our
non­
sexist democracy.
An d
finally,
come
that
a
you
clearly
that
During
the
cannot
ge nui ne
and
as
possible
to
should
the
will
the
truly
days
per io d
about
what you do.
wo r d
of
of
not
cross
Wh it e
change
be
cha ng e
Government
be
you
and
judged
day;
You
the
mu s t
domination
while
pla ye r
the
Rubicon.
minority
and
bot h
wil l
the
of
remain
referee.
not
by
time
understand
are
over.
in
power,
Whether
wh a t
you
has
you
say,
but
you
are
by
L et us all move forwar d tog eth er to arr iv e as spe edily
at
our
com mon
ob je ct iv e
of
a
democratic
So ut h
Africa.
I thank you.
MR JUSTICE MAHOMED
Lad ies
bution s
its
and Gentlemen,
of
yesterday,
re co m m e n d a t i o n s
be tw ee n
af ter
thirty
and
a report w hi ch will
the
and
we
those
two
M an ag e m e n t
have
f or ty -f ive
contributions
Committee
agr ee d
m i nut es
to
to
then be p r e s e n t e d after tea.
CO NV E N T I O N A D J O U R N E D FOR TEA
needs
have
ena bl e
and
a
the
to
tea
them
to
contri­
co ns id er
b re ak
of
co nsider
CO NVE NTI ON RE SU ME D
MR JUSTICE SCHABORT
Your
pat ien ce
has
be e n
tested
this hall to procee d wi th
Ladies
and
enough
for
gentlemen,
the
time
also see something;
I
now
call
Committee,
upo n
who
it
will
a ga in
lucki ly
we
are
back
in
the agenda.
has
being,
been
and
after all,
Mr
but
a
that
that you ha v e
it
is
time
probably
that
you
heard
should
seeing is believing.
Gordhan,
perform
felt
the
certain
Chairman
task
here
of
-
the
he
Management
wi l l
certai n slides.
/SLIDE P R E S E N T A T I O N
prese nt
SLIDE PRESENTATION BY MR P J GORDHAN
CHAIRMAN : MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE
The
Chairperson s,
of
the
Management
C o m mi tt ee
in
the
rep or t
v a ri ou s
gra p h i c a l l y
that
It
has
will
this,
on
the
and
opportunity
months
that
we
with
in
indeed
we
the
assess
have
been
on
do
in
of
ag ree men ts
is
to
try
who
process.
are
ob s e r v i n g
accomplished
CODESA
on
to
the vis io n
transition
been
behalf
M an ag em en t
capturing
outside
has
w o r k in g
to
on
the
today
the
peo pl e
what
you
I,
re sp e c t
a vi e w
CODE SA
to
in
What
report
to
made
Groups.
that
Yesterday
pr e s e n t e d
pr ogr es s
developing
us,
Gentlemen.
Committee,
capture
give
and
Working
been
an
five
Lad ie s
the
in
one
the
hand,
and what remain as o u t s t a n d i n g m a t t e r s on the ot he r hand.
At
the
on
your
is
a
we
have
and
Management
behalf
vital
take
should
my s t e r i o u s
rea ch in g
that
as p e c t
to
they
Committee
marketing
of
our
CODESA
wo rk
and
ca l l ed
a gr ee me nt s
w h i ch
can
the
is
it
as we
next
that
slide
CO D E S A
understand
Afri ca
to
we
a
begin
was
it,
to
a ct u a l l y
to mo ve
democratic
us
future
been
and
ne go t i a t i o n
is
it
affe ct
consistent
negotiating
of
course,
p r oc es s
that
Trade
a
the
marketing,
World
forward to a secure and pe ac e f u l
On
and
what
the
has
CO DE S A
the
understand
place
there
process,
means
to
our
we
are
doing
Centre,
an d
are
their
lives
concern
and
that
people
in
we
this
indeed
take
them
future.
captur e
set
up for?
from
and
the
the
a
CODESA
objecti ve s.
C O D E S A was
c u rre nt
democratic
What
established,
situation
So ut h
in South
Africa,
that
the crucial asp ec t that we need to resol ve w i t h i n the C O D E S A forums,
is
the
future
key
aspe ct
South
ob j e c t i v e
of
drafting
Af r i c a
that
a
democratic
would
be
based,
gui de s
us
in
the
and
constitution
that
processes
on
r e mai ns
that
which
today
follow
a
the
even